[Patrick_Mucci]

favorite par 4, what was his favorite par 3 ?


And, what was his favorite par 5 ?

[Rob Marshall]

Par 3- 15 or 16th at Cypress?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rob,


I'm not so sure about that as the five par 3's at Pasatiempo are all spectacular.


While I haven't played his entire body of work, in and out of the U.S., I think I could safely surmise that none of the par 3's at ANGC would be in the running

[Tom_Doak]

I don't think MacKenzie ever declared what his favorite par-3 and par-5 were.  Interesting, since the 16th at Cypress Point and the 13th at Augusta National would probably win [or at least place in the top 3] of most polls.


If I had to guess, I'd guess MacKenzie would have said his favorite par-3 was the Gibraltar hole at Moortown.  It is similar to the Redan, although the green does not have the 45-degree angle, and MacKenzie took pains to explain that when he built the hole he had not yet been to North Berwick.  [Apparently he didn't go there until after 1920.]  Anyway, the Gibraltar hole was significant in his career, because that course was his first paid design commission, after he was on the committee at Alwoodley.  The founders didn't have a lot of money, and MacKenzie told them if they had him build this one par-3 hole, everyone would see what a good course it was going to be and they would be able to raise the money.  And it worked!


I don't know of a par-5 where he had a similar attachment.

[Bill_McBride]

Rob,


I'm not so sure about that as the five par 3's at Pasatiempo are all spectacular.


While I haven't played his entire body of work, in and out of the U.S., I think I could safely surmise that none of the par 3's at ANGC would be in the running

Please list the Mackenzie courses you have played, inside and outside the U.S.


What are your favorite par 3 and par 5?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rob,


I'm not so sure about that as the five par 3's at Pasatiempo are all spectacular.


While I haven't played his entire body of work, in and out of the U.S., I think I could safely surmise that none of the par 3's at ANGC would be in the running

Please list the Mackenzie courses you have played, inside and outside the U.S.

Why ?

What are your favorite par 3 and par 5?


The 2nd at CPC is a favorite of mine.
I love the hole and it's component features

Many will list # 13 at ANGC

As to par 3's, many will list #'s 15 and 16 at CPC, along with #'s 3, 5, 8 and 18 at Pasatiempo.  # 15 isn't bad either.

Unfortunately, my recollection of the Valley Club is vague.

I don't see any of the par 's at ANGC being his favorites

[Mike_Clayton]

Maybe his favourite 3 would be the 15th at Kingston Heath. He built the hole with Mick Morcom when he was down in Australia in 1926.It gets points for being a great hole but also because of the 'blot on the course' (his words) it replaced - a blind short par 4 down to a green close to what is now the 16th tee.
Two birds with one stone.
His par 5, 4th at Royal Melbourne must gets points too as it's unconventional blind tee shot over the dune allowed for his brilliant 5th and 6th holes. Any measure of his best 3s,4s and 5s has to include these three holes.

[DMoriarty]

Any chance Mackenzie's favorite par three and/or five might not have come from Mackenzie's own repertoire? Think of the possibilities . . .

[Tim_Weiman]

Maybe his favourite 3 would be the 15th at Kingston Heath. He built the hole with Mick Morcom when he was down in Australia in 1926.It gets points for being a great hole but also because of the 'blot on the course' (his words) it replaced - a blind short par 4 down to a green close to what is now the 16th tee.
Two birds with one stone.
His par 5, 4th at Royal Melbourne must gets points too as it's unconventional blind tee shot over the dune allowed for his brilliant 5th and 6th holes. Any measure of his best 3s,4s and 5s has to include these three holes.

Mike,


What about #5 at RM?

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci:


Do you have a view of Mackenzie's likely feeling about #12 at Augusta?


I never felt it was has kind of hole. Just a gut feeling of mine.

[Kalen Braley]

Tim,
 
The problem with the current 12th at ANGC is its so drastically different now than it was when it was 1st put in place....
 
AM would almost find it unrecognizable.....

[BCrosby]

I doubt MacK would have a favorite hole that he had not seen in its finished state, which would rule out holes at ANGC and RM.


Bob

[Greg Smith]

I think I know that Mackenzie's favorite par-3 was NOT the 15th at Cypress Point, based on his own writings about it.  AM himself said he felt the hole lacked adequate strategic alternatives, and that the praise for the hole was based mostly on reputation and the beauty of its setting.
 
I also have my doubts about the 16th at Cypress Point.  This hole was set as a 350-yard two-shot hole in some incarnations of the routing.  Apparently it took some convincing by Ms. Hollins to bring AM on board with the shorter hole.  In hindsight Mackenzie must have viewed the hole as possibly his greatest 3 ever -- but I doubt he would have cited the hole as his "favorite".
 
I guess I buy Tom Doak's assertions about the Gibraltar hole.  That seems more likely to have been viewed by AM himself as his personal "best" work.
 
You know, perhaps this thread is connected with the recent one about "best" holes/courses vs. "favorite" holes/courses.  That was quite a discussion.
 
Par-5s now, I dunno. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think I know that Mackenzie's favorite par-3 was NOT the 15th at Cypress Point, based on his own writings about it.  AM himself said he felt the hole lacked adequate strategic alternatives, and that the praise for the hole was based mostly on reputation and the beauty of its setting.
 
I also have my doubts about the 16th at Cypress Point.  This hole was set as a 350-yard two-shot hole in some incarnations of the routing.  Apparently it took some convincing by Ms. Hollins to bring AM on board with the shorter hole.  In hindsight Mackenzie must have viewed the hole as possibly his greatest 3 ever -- but I doubt he would have cited the hole as his "favorite".


Greg,

The Marion Hollins story is a nice myth.

The collection of par 3's at Pasatiempo is outstanding

I guess I buy Tom Doak's assertions about the Gibraltar hole.  That seems more likely to have been viewed by AM himself as his personal "best" work.
 
You know, perhaps this thread is connected with the recent one about "best" holes/courses vs. "favorite" holes/courses.  That was quite a discussion.
 
Par-5s now, I dunno.


Could those familiar with AM's body of work in California and elsewhere, opine ?

[Bill_McBride]

I think I know that Mackenzie's favorite par-3 was NOT the 15th at Cypress Point, based on his own writings about it.  AM himself said he felt the hole lacked adequate strategic alternatives, and that the praise for the hole was based mostly on reputation and the beauty of its setting.
 
I also have my doubts about the 16th at Cypress Point.  This hole was set as a 350-yard two-shot hole in some incarnations of the routing.  Apparently it took some convincing by Ms. Hollins to bring AM on board with the shorter hole.  In hindsight Mackenzie must have viewed the hole as possibly his greatest 3 ever -- but I doubt he would have cited the hole as his "favorite".


Greg,

The Marion Hollins story is a nice myth.

The collection of par 3's at Pasatiempo is outstanding

I guess I buy Tom Doak's assertions about the Gibraltar hole.  That seems more likely to have been viewed by AM himself as his personal "best" work.
 
You know, perhaps this thread is connected with the recent one about "best" holes/courses vs. "favorite" holes/courses.  That was quite a discussion.
 
Par-5s now, I dunno.


Could those familiar with AM's body of work in California and elsewhere, opine ?

Mackenzie par 5s I like best in California would be 2 and 5 at Cypress Point and 15 at the Valley Club with the spectacles fairway bunkers and two tier green.   The tee shot is terrific at CPC #2 and the fairway bunkering is amazing at CPC #5.

[Mike_Clayton]

Tim,


I assume he was pretty pleased with 5 West.Who wouldn't be?

[Kalen Braley]

Bill,
 
I'm with you on the 5th at CPC, just an amazing hole from start to finish....and given all the other holes at CPC that get the normal mentions, it always flies way under the radar.....

[Bill Brightly]

[Ronald Montesano]

Because this is the same type of sparkling, penetrating question that you ask others on this discussion board. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. We'd all love to know the depth of your personal experience with Alister MacKenzie courses, of course.

============================================


Please list the Mackenzie courses you have played, inside and outside the U.S.

Why ?



Because this is the same type of sparkling, penetrating question that you ask others on this discussion board. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. We'd all love to know the depth of your personal experience with Alister MacKenzie courses, of course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ron,


So now you can read Bill McBride's mind and are now speaking on his behalf ?  ?  ?


If, instead of being a moron, you'd read my posts you'd know the answer to the question.



[/size]Because this is the same type of sparkling, penetrating question that you ask others on this discussion board. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. We'd all love to know the depth of your personal experience with Alister MacKenzie courses, of course.

============================================


Please list the Mackenzie courses you have played, inside and outside the U.S.

[/size]Why ?



[/size]Because this is the same type of sparkling, penetrating question that you ask others on this discussion board. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. We'd all love to know the depth of your personal experience with Alister MacKenzie courses, of course.

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick, it would be interesting to know which Mackenzie courses you've played.  There are wonderful holes and dastardly greens at Crystal Downs.  I've never played Inwood and the Scarlet Course at Ohio State.  But in the end what does it matter?  I'm glad you've played a few of the courses he designed in California, they remain in the top echelon of the courses I've played around the world. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Now, Patrick, reading Bill's mind has nothing to do with the "Because" statement I posted. I was asking myself, What MacKenzie courses has Patrick played? He must have played a number of them, to posit such a question. I've never played a MacKenzie, not that anyone cares, ergo I didn't start such a thread.

Are you suggesting that I'm "More Ron" but in a contracted "moron" way? Such a compliment and thank you for that. It's wonderful how you add your personal touches to every response on this discussion board. My suspicion is that you answer questions with questions to make DB members feel less confident in their original inquiry. It seems to be something of an aggressive, courtroom technique and must work wonders in the proper venue.
===============================================

Ron,


So now you can read Bill McBride's mind and are now speaking on his behalf ?  ?  ?


If, instead of being a moron, you'd read my posts you'd know the answer to the question.



Because this is the same type of sparkling, penetrating question that you ask others on this discussion board. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. We'd all love to know the depth of your personal experience with Alister MacKenzie courses, of course.

============================================


Please list the Mackenzie courses you have played, inside and outside the U.S.

Why ?



Because this is the same type of sparkling, penetrating question that you ask others on this discussion board. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. We'd all love to know the depth of your personal experience with Alister MacKenzie courses, of course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ron,


If you would take the time to read my opening post and the three subsequent posts that followed before Bill made his post, maybe, just maybe you'd understand my response to his queries.


I offered NO favorite Par 3's or Par 5's, hence the courses I've played are irrelevant in terms of the context of this thread.


I merely stated that I doubted that any of ANGC's par 3's would be viable candidates.


Bill has a habit, a documented history of trying to deliberately derail the threads I initiate.


That you're too obtuse to have observed that, and obviously too obtuse to see that his question bore no relevance to the question I posed in my opening thread speaks to the decline in the intellectual capital possessed on this site.


The MacKenzie courses I've played are irrelevant, to date, as I had offered NO opinion as to what AM's favorite par 3's and Par 5's were.


I also stated that I hadn't played his entire body of work, but if you've read my posts with any degree of comprehension, you'd know what courses I've played.


Rather than being a nit picking moron, as Bill can sometimes be, why don't you try to contribute posts of substance that will enhance the discussions, rather than trying to derail them.


If you've never played a MacKenzie course you should remain an uninvolved lurker rather than a know nothing participant trying to derail an interesting thread.

[Ronald Montesano]

Goodness, Patrick, if I were what you accuse me of being, I'd have a hard time derailing the 10 or so threads you've started in the past 12 hours. I have to give you credit, because when I had four threads on the front page, I was criticized for such verbosity. Yours are obviously fundamental to the continued evolution of this DB and I hope to read all of them.


I (heavy sigh) guess that it's beneath you to make a list of the Dr. MacKenzie courses you've played. Lord knows it would be an olive branch on your part.


I often lay awake at night, in a dreamlike state, imagining what a debate between you and you would be like. It would remind me of the argument between two notably stubborn Spaniards: one a Basque and the other a Navarren. The Basque said that he could hammer a nail through a cinder-block wall with his head. The Navarren said that he could not. The Basque started banging away and all the bar's patrons gathered round to watch. Although bloodied, the Basque persisted and was two to three blows away from success when the Navarren angrily left the bar. Two blows later, all were poised to celebrate the Basque's somewhat-odd feat of strength and stubbornness. He smashed...and smashed...and smashed, but the nail wouldn't budge. On he hit until he fell over and died, one blow short of success.


"Man, he was so close," they said as the exited the bar...where they found the corpse of the Navarren, dead from smashing the nail back through the cinder block with his head~


Funny story, huh?


Since none of us ever met Dr. MacKenzie in the flesh, we really have no idea how he thought, what his personality was like, and what his favorite holes were. By the by, when did he actually declare that the 16th hole at Pasatiempo was his favorite par four? And why should an architect's favorite holes matter to us? Such a subjective distinction is surely not important to an empirical site such as this one, am I correct?

[cary lichtenstein]

I played 90% of his entire body of work worldwide, a thrill to do so

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