[Tom_Doak]

-29  Dustin Johnson  [-9, -4, -4, -12]
-34  Justin Rose  [-14, +5, -11, -14]
-35  Jason Day  [-1, E, -14, -20]
-54  Jordan Spieth  [-18, -5, -14, -17]


Day didn't really contend at The Masters, Rose not at the U.S. Open, otherwise they were all in the hunt for all four ... if you count losing by 20 shots over four tournaments as "in the hunt". 


Zach Johnson missed the cut at the PGA, and due to a poor U.S. Open, was only -8 for the other three majors ... but he has one more trophy this year than Dustin or Justin.

[Tom_Doak]

Also, for what it's worth:


+2   Jack Nicklaus, 1972  [-2, +2, -5, +7]


-53  Tiger Woods, 2000   [-4, -12, -19, -18]

[RJ_Daley]

So Tom, is it fair to say that in your situation (or any golf course architect with a desire to do the best design tailored to the spirit of the game) it is just not the right thing to do to even contemplate designing a course that may hold down this sort of cumulative or average winning scores of strokes under par to win these majors on these courses?   Should anyone accepting new commissions to design a 'tournament course worthy of a major' even think about trying to design in features that can hold down this relentless assault of under par?  Or, just get out there and design more enjoyable golf courses for the masses, and call it a career?   

[Mark Pavy]

Tom,

Do you think you could break 80 around Whistling Straits at 7,500 ?

[Rory Connaughton]

Tom

Would you ever consider a commission that called on you to design a course built for Majors/TV? If so, any thoughts on what your approach would be given topography like Stonewall for example?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Do you think you could break 80 around Whistling Straits at 7,500 ?

I don't think I could have when I was at my best [around a 6 handicap].  Certainly not now.  Those guys are all playing a game I am only vaguely familiar with, from seeing it on TV.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom

Would you ever consider a commission that called on you to design a course built for Majors/TV? If so, any thoughts on what your approach would be given topography like Stonewall for example?

I would love to do it, just once.  But I am beginning to doubt it will ever happen.  The Rio course was probably my best shot.

[Mark Pavy]

Tom,

Do you think you could break 80 around Whistling Straits at 7,500 ?

I don't think I could have when I was at my best [around a 6 handicap].  Certainly not now.  Those guys are all playing a game I am only vaguely familiar with, from seeing it on TV.

It's quite amazing how straight they hit 330 yard drives.

[Niall C]

Watching Sky TV in the UK last night, they compared more than once that Spieths accumulative score with Tigers in 2000. However I think I'm right in saying that back in 2000 the US Open hadn't started the practice of declaring a couple of the par 5's as par 4's thereby reducing the par of the course to 70. If I'm right in that assumption then could you add on 8 to Spieths under par total for comparison purposes ?


Niall

[Matt Bielawa]

Watching Sky TV in the UK last night, they compared more than once that Spieths accumulative score with Tigers in 2000. However I think I'm right in saying that back in 2000 the US Open hadn't started the practice of declaring a couple of the par 5's as par 4's thereby reducing the par of the course to 70. If I'm right in that assumption then could you add on 8 to Spieths under par total for comparison purposes ?


Niall

Pebble played as a Par 71 in its last two US Opens, with the 2nd hole becoming at Par 4.  1992 and before, they left it as a par 72.

[Ruediger Meyer]

I think the comparison understates how good Tiger Woods was in 2000.

If you add up the best scores of a player not named Jordan Spieth in the four majors this year you get -53

If you add up the best scores of a player not named Tiger Woods in the four majors in 2000 you get -36

[Andrew Buck]

-29  Dustin Johnson  [-9, -4, -4, -12]
-34  Justin Rose  [-14, +5, -11, -14]
-35  Jason Day  [-1, E, -14, -20]
-54  Jordan Spieth  [-18, -5, -14, -17]


Day didn't really contend at The Masters, Rose not at the U.S. Open, otherwise they were all in the hunt for all four ... if you count losing by 20 shots over four tournaments as "in the hunt". 


Zach Johnson missed the cut at the PGA, and due to a poor U.S. Open, was only -8 for the other three majors ... but he has one more trophy this year than Dustin or Justin.

Basically, Spieth would be around a +10 handicap in the majors, without taking into account the conditions, if we assume Augusta is somewhere in the 78 CR range and St Andrews around 75.

I don't think there is anyway Day shoots more than one round above 60 on my 6,700 yard course this week with relatively easy weather conditions and 7 par 4's under 400 yards.  These guys are good.

[RKoehn]

Scoring at Whistling Straits was arguably skewed 4 shots lower by calling #11 a "par 5" when guys like Jason Day are hitting PW or 9 iron in for their 2nd shots. 

Par is obviously irrelevant, just a way of comparing score among people at different places on the course.

[Tom_Doak]

I think the comparison understates how good Tiger Woods was in 2000.

If you add up the best scores of a player not named Jordan Spieth in the four majors this year you get -53

If you add up the best scores of a player not named Tiger Woods in the four majors in 2000 you get -36

The comparison with Tiger [and with Jack] was not really fair because they were playing different courses in different conditions, years ago.  The only course that overlapped was Augusta National [and Pebble Beach for Jack v. Tiger].

[Ronald Montesano]

1. When Jordan Spieth repeats 2015 five times like Tiger did    then we'll have some data to crunch.


2. Does the golf viewing world prefer NBA Basketball All Star Games or NASCAR on a slick day?


3. Elite. I do not think it means what you think it means.


4. At a seance recently. Hogan, Sneed and Nelson checked in with Vardon, Braid and Taylor. They agreed that they would never have played golf with this equipment and that they would have created the Professional Bocce Bowlers Tour and made people forget the auld gayme. Then they went back to Heaven's Spa.

[Adam Clayman]

Focusing on score places the focus in the wrong place.

With set up flexibility, and, the ability to circumvent nature's random firmness, scores are easily manipulated. The tournament committee's justifications for lower scores, translates to more exciting television, which could be argued, is how they are manipulating you, the viewer.

Lower the absolute value of par and these numbers aren't relevant.

But who are we kidding? The statement of principles made in '02 was nothing but smoke, coming out of Pandora's box, or, wherever.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Only watched yesterday for a bit, but it seems as if wind wasn't a problem there or at Chambers.  How different would those scores be if it has blown at those two pretty difficult courses?  I think there was fear of both being almost unplayable if wind blows, and even without wind, unplayable for the bottom half of the field in any case.

Hasn't it always been the case that "Nae Wind, Nae Golf?"

Hard to compare overall, and trying to raise the top 5 scores via architecture means you may as well cut the final field to 20 or so, because that would be the only ones with any chance to win.  The 144 who qualify ought to be able to finish somewhere, and that means the top 5 in any given week will have low scores.

[Niall C]

I think the comparison understates how good Tiger Woods was in 2000.

If you add up the best scores of a player not named Jordan Spieth in the four majors this year you get -53

If you add up the best scores of a player not named Tiger Woods in the four majors in 2000 you get -36

The comparison with Tiger [and with Jack] was not really fair because they were playing different courses in different conditions, years ago.  The only course that overlapped was Augusta National [and Pebble Beach for Jack v. Tiger].

TOC ?

[Peter Pallotta]

A bit saddening the end of an era is, especially for those with a fondness for history and tradition. Eras have ended before, of course -- when Augusta first opened, I don't think there were any members' tees more than 25 yards in front of/shorter than any championship tees. But the era we grew up in is now clearly over as well, and everyone in the golf industry has to try to wrap their heads around the age that has come, i.e. an age in which scores for the best golfers in the world mean nothing at all, except amongst/relative to those golfers themselves. No great architecture, no excessive length, no firm and fast conditions, no weather conditions, no brilliant designer working on an outstanding piece of land, no astute renovation or restoration, no clever USGA set-up man, can do anything about this new relativity; all anyone can say now is that -28 is a better score than -25.
Peter

PS - I just had the image of an aging, wealthy client in tailored clothes motioning across his 300 acres and saying to an architect: "I want you to build me the toughest championship course imaginable. When I get the US Open here, I don't want anyone scoring better than -25!"

[John Kavanaugh]

The hole has simply gotten larger.  Have you ever seen so many contenders putt so well?  It's not the equipment, the ball or the length of the courses.  It's the perfect greens at perfect speed.  If more putts get to the hole more go in.  If a putt that is going a comfortable distance past the hole is going slower more putts go in.  ie: A putt going two foot past the hole on a fast green is going slower at the hole than on a slow green.  If every put holds the intended line more putts go in.  As in all the things killing golf it comes back to the out of control turf industry and over jealous superintendents.

[Mark Pearce]

The hole has simply gotten larger.  Have you ever seen so many contenders putt so well?  It's not the equipment, the ball or the length of the courses.  It's the perfect greens at perfect speed.  If more putts get to the hole more go in.  If a putt that is going a comfortable distance past the hole is going slower more putts go in.  ie: A putt going two foot past the hole on a fast green is going slower at the hole than on a slow green.  If every put holds the intended line more putts go in.  As in all the things killing golf it comes back to the out of control turf industry and over jealous superintendents.

Possibly the best post I have seen from you on this site.

[Niall C]

A very good post up until the last line. Flawless greens aren't killing golf, nothing is, the game survives.


Niall

[Greg Taylor]

Tiger was using a 975D in 2000, no way does that go as far as the current crop of drivers and ball.


Still amazing Stats by Spieth. Will be fun to watch him and Rory.

[John Kavanaugh]

Let me be the first to complain about how high the new ball goes.  That's the ticket.

[Andrew Buck]

Tiger was using a 975D in 2000, no way does that go as far as the current crop of drivers and ball.


Still amazing Stats by Spieth. Will be fun to watch him and Rory.

While I think he and Rory will be dominant for a long time, I would not be surprised at all for Day to have a Watson like career.  Much like Tom who took several attempts to break through, Day is just knocking at the door so often to think he can't win a decent number of these things.

Lot's of other young guns showing potential as well.  Definitely entertaining golf.

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