If one of the architect's functions is to create a disinterested challenge that

[Patrick_Mucci]

doesn't favor any particular game, and the game is played by a diverse spectrum of golfers, how does the architect determine fairway bunker configuration and depth ?


While I would imagine that the distance between the fairway bunker and green has a significant influence on both configuration and depth, how can the same bunker provide a proportionate challenge to that broad spectrum of golfers ?

[Mark Pavy]

In theory it does or rather did at one stage for every golfer- provide the exact same proportionate challenge.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Do you really think, as of today's date, that fairway bunkers present the same challenge to a zero handicap as they do to an 8, 16 and 24 handicap ?

In theory it does or rather did at one stage for every golfer- provide the exact same proportionate challenge.

[Mark Pavy]

The challenge is the same,  the results or performance will vary significantly, however, the expectations vs results will have the same ratio across the spectrum of hcps.

 

[Thomas Dai]

Less sand bunkers, more grass bunkers?
Atb

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

The challenge isn't the same due to the disparity in ability.

That's why they don't let Bantimweights fight Heavyweights, even though the boxing ring is the same for both of them.

The configuration/depth of the bunker is the same, but the challenge and the ability to recover are vastly different..

Next you'll tell us that the challenge presented by the 18 th hole at Pebble Beach is the same for a 24 handicap as it is for a PGA Tour Pro.

[Bill_McBride]

Mark,

The challenge isn't the same due to the disparity in ability.

That's why they don't let Bantimweights fight Heavyweights, even though the boxing ring is the same for both of them.

The configuration/depth of the bunker is the same, but the challenge and the ability to recover are vastly different..

Next you'll tell us that the challenge presented by the 18 th hole at Pebble Beach is the same for a 24 handicap as it is for a PGA Tour Pro.

There's a reason one is a PGA pro and the other is a 24.  The hole is the hole, the players' abilities vary greatly. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

They could all look like these, which favor no one:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

The challenge isn't the same due to the disparity in ability.

That's why they don't let Bantimweights fight Heavyweights, even though the boxing ring is the same for both of them.

The configuration/depth of the bunker is the same, but the challenge and the ability to recover are vastly different..

Next you'll tell us that the challenge presented by the 18 th hole at Pebble Beach is the same for a 24 handicap as it is for a PGA Tour Pro.

There's a reason one is a PGA pro and the other is a 24.  The hole is the hole, the players' abilities vary greatly.
 
Bill,
 
Why don't you go back and read, probably for the first time, the opening thread.
 
Better yet, have someone who possesses a modicum of reading comprehension read it for you.
 
The thread isn't about the physical properties of the bunker, rather, it's about the "disproportionate challenge" presented by that bunker, due to the disparity in the abilities of golfers.
 
Instead of being a nit picking moron, try contributing something positive to the threads I create.

[Mark Pavy]

The boxing ring is a really poor analogy.

Since we're discussing "disproportionate challenge", please define what the challenge is.

Why is a bunker any more of a "disproportionate challenge" than a shot from the tee or the fairway?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,


The "challenge" is the suddessful extrication of the ball from the bunker.


When you present a "challenge" that's commensurate with the ability of a PGA Tour Pro, that same challenge represents a disproportionate challenge for the 24 handicap.


If you don't understand that, try to have someone who does understand it, explain it to you.

[Bill_McBride]

Mark,

The challenge isn't the same due to the disparity in ability.

That's why they don't let Bantimweights fight Heavyweights, even though the boxing ring is the same for both of them.

The configuration/depth of the bunker is the same, but the challenge and the ability to recover are vastly different..

Next you'll tell us that the challenge presented by the 18 th hole at Pebble Beach is the same for a 24 handicap as it is for a PGA Tour Pro.

There's a reason one is a PGA pro and the other is a 24.  The hole is the hole, the players' abilities vary greatly.
 
Bill,
 
Why don't you go back and read, probably for the first time, the opening thread.
 
Better yet, have someone who possesses a modicum of reading comprehension read it for you.
 
The thread isn't about the physical properties of the bunker, rather, it's about the "disproportionate challenge" presented by that bunker, due to the disparity in the abilities of golfers.
 
Instead of being a nit picking moron, try contributing something positive to the threads I create.

Let me give this a try although not sure why I bother, you always have a predetermined position that brooks no other thoughts. 


Once a bunker is in place on the course, it can't be changed because of the disparate abilities of the players.  What changes is how those players deal with the challenge.


I'll give you an example, the 10th at Muirfield.   It's our first hole of the day, 430 yards with an intimidating cross bunker.  I hit a short tee shot and my caddie suggests I lay up in front of this beast and play my third across and plan on 5.  I am very happy to do this, with a solid pitching wedge for my third and two putts. 


The strong players play across the cross bunkers but make bogey.  We all make bogies.  The challenge is quite different for players of disparate ability but we all have to deal with it.   I'm not sure what you are suggesting could change this equation. 


In short, everybody has to deal with the various challenges that are presented by the architect regardless of how well or poorly they play.   

[Mark Pavy]

Mark,


The "challenge" is the suddessful extrication of the ball from the bunker.

Got it! Your one of those guys who takes great pride in the fact you've been using the same golf ball for 48 years, the ball is your property and you have every right to retrieve your property that may involve extrication from sand, underwater retrieval and native vegetation clearing. You should really stop hitting the ball away from you, it sends mixed messages.


When you present a "challenge" that's commensurate with the ability of a PGA Tour Pro, that same challenge represents a disproportionate challenge for the 24 handicap.

I understand now, the PGA Tour Pro has many more sets of eyes looking for their ball, it's just not fair.


If you don't understand that, try to have someone who does understand it, explain it to you.

I'm with you now Pat, I just need to know where I write "successful extrication of the ball from the bunker" on the scorecard.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

I always suspected that you were a colossal moron, and now you've confirmed my suspicions.
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[/size]Thanks[/color]

Mark,


The "challenge" is the suddessful extrication of the ball from the bunker.

[/size]Got it! Your one of those guys who takes great pride in the fact you've been using the same golf ball for 48 years, the ball is your property and you have every right to retrieve your property that may involve extrication from sand, underwater retrieval and native vegetation clearing. You should really stop hitting the ball away from you, it sends mixed messages.


When you present a "challenge" that's commensurate with the ability of a PGA Tour Pro, that same challenge represents a disproportionate challenge for the 24 handicap.

I understand now, the PGA Tour Pro has many more sets of eyes looking for their ball, it's just not fair.


If you don't understand that, try to have someone who does understand it, explain it to you.

I'm with you now Pat, I just need to know where I write "successful extrication of the ball from the bunker" on the scorecard.