[Sean_A]

The 18th at TOC often has the hole location dead centre of the green..thus eliminating any real strategy.  One can bang a drive way left and hoist a short iron onto the green.  Like the 8th, hole location makes the difference between good and okay.  That said, the 18th will always be a bit special because its TOC.


Ciao

[Chris DeToro]

I'd also have to say the first hole is my favorite at TOC.  You have the nerves and the grandeur of the place.  For first timers or those not used to it at all, you have townspeople just walking around and maybe stopping to watch.  A huge fairway and a big green.  It can be a straight-forward par, but if you miss it a little, you risk bringing the burn into play, having a difficult, half-club sort of approach and a difficult 2-putt

[Tom_Doak]

I once named the 2nd hole, but I have to rescind that now.


The two holes that interest me most are the 4th and the 12th.  Both of them are very different than anything you'll find anywhere else.  We have actually tried to mimic the approach shot to the 12th a few times on my own courses [7th at Riverfront, 7th at The Rawls Course, new 12th green at Forest Dunes], more than any other feature of St. Andrews.

[Alex Miller]

14- because it's a great half par hole in any wind. The tee shot features OB and a wide bailout, second shot equally strategic with Hell Bunker and the green wildly fantastic with an incredible false front and fall off in back, but still very generous for a par 5.


Heck St. Andrews is fantastic overall, maybe I'm just picking the hole that takes the most real estate and represents the largest % of the overall course? 

[Bill_McBride]

I'd be interested to see how many think that # 18 is a great hole, architecturally.
 
If # 18 was anywhere else in the routing would it be deemed a weak hole ?
 
If it was on any other course, as the 18th hole or holes 1-17, would it attain the notoriety ?
 
I can see it as a neat 1st hole, but, from a playability perspective, I don't see it's greatness.
 
Does anyone else ?

Pat,


I haven't been to TOC yet, so my comments are just based upon what I've read and watched. I don't think many suggest that 18 is a great hole. Based on my observations though, its merits seem to derive from: A. its position as the final hole B. the valley of sin C. its length.


Its length would suggest that it should always be a birdie hole, but because of hole locations near the VoS, it can be a very difficult birdie.

Matthew, are the 350 yard par 4s on your course "...always ...a birdie hole...?"   The slope and interaction with the Valley of Sin slopes make par anything but automatic.  Into the wind it can be a well struck mid iron. 

[Mark_Rowlinson]

My favourite is the 1st, not because it is the greatest hole from a strategic point of view, but because you still have seventeen further holes to go. Anticipation of what is to come is perhaps TOC's strongest point. As you play the 1st you are already eagerly awaiting the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on. You can't wait to get to the Elysian Fields, Hell Bunker, the Beardies and all the rest of them. And as you play the 1st hole you get a glimpse of the 17th. At this point you don't fear it. That fear sets in later in the round.

[Kalen Braley]

It seems like 18 At TOC could go for a couple of centerline bunkers.  one at 220-240 yards out, and the other at 270-300.
 
Might give the hole more interest....

[Andrew Simpson]

It seems like 18 At TOC could go for a couple of centerline bunkers.  one at 220-240 yards out, and the other at 270-300.
 
Might give the hole more interest....

I'm sure that could be said about just about every hole in golf but if every hole was the same there wouldn't be any fun. Sure the fairway might be 100yards wide but depending on the hole position and wind direction there might only be 20 to get a good angle. I've played with people who hit draw on just about every shot, they then aim down the middle and hit their only slice right over the OB fence, it's all about the location.
 If every curving par 5 was round a scenic bay the 18th at Pebble wouldn't be noteworthy.

[Kalen Braley]

It seems like 18 At TOC could go for a couple of centerline bunkers.  one at 220-240 yards out, and the other at 270-300.
 
Might give the hole more interest....

I'm sure that could be said about just about every hole in golf but if every hole was the same there wouldn't be any fun. Sure the fairway might be 100yards wide but depending on the hole position and wind direction there might only be 20 to get a good angle. I've played with people who hit draw on just about every shot, they then aim down the middle and hit their only slice right over the OB fence, it's all about the location.
 If every curving par 5 was round a scenic bay the 18th at Pebble wouldn't be noteworthy.

Andrew,
 
I would only recommend centerline bunkers on very few holes that are super wide like the 18th.  Or holes that have no other protections, otherwise.
I do not think Centerline bunkering would add interest to the vast majority of golf holes, it would only make them more unnecessarily difficult.....

[Marty Bonnar]

Once upon a time, there was Halket's...

F.

[Andrew Simpson]

It seems like 18 At TOC could go for a couple of centerline bunkers.  one at 220-240 yards out, and the other at 270-300.
 
Might give the hole more interest....

I'm sure that could be said about just about every hole in golf but if every hole was the same there wouldn't be any fun. Sure the fairway might be 100yards wide but depending on the hole position and wind direction there might only be 20 to get a good angle. I've played with people who hit draw on just about every shot, they then aim down the middle and hit their only slice right over the OB fence, it's all about the location.
 If every curving par 5 was round a scenic bay the 18th at Pebble wouldn't be noteworthy.

Andrew,
 
I would only recommend centerline bunkers on very few holes that are super wide like the 18th.  Or holes that have no other protections, otherwise.
I do not think Centerline bunkering would add interest to the vast majority of golf holes, it would only make them more unnecessarily difficult.....

Yes I think i understand what you are saying Kalen but I'm just saying that the whole location is what gives it appeal. Tightening the fairway is just not required in this case as the location, history and unusual surroundings pose a challenge to most.
 I forgot to say on my first post I'd go for 12. So many way's to play it and even if you chose the right or wrong option off the tee the pin position will probably still be open to an inventive second. Though if you get it wrong a bogey could still be on the cards.

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