[Niall C]

Sean


IMO about 50 yards is correct which is basically what I was saying. I don't think clubs ever maintained fairways as wide as Castle Stuart, they just had sheep.


With regards to whats boring, let me suggest this to you, I'd rather play a round where I'm playing on the edge rather than blootering it wherever, even if it is at the cost of looking for a couple of balls (assuming you think them findable and haven't immediately declared them lost). A bit like the golden age guys used to say about bunkers, they should be there to trap the nearly good shot rather then the rank bad one. Thats what creates the interest IMO.


Niall

[MCirba]

I think the best golf courses, links or not, should have an element of discovery, adventure, and whimsy, and force the golfer, yes force, to think creatively and variably in response. 

[Chris DeNigris]

With regards to the "boring" aspect discussed above- it would certainly be much more boring if all courses were in one camp or the other.  The joy of it all is the variety offered by a more traditional and "tighter" links like Nairn and the more spacious openness of CS just a few paces down the road.

As a random multi-directional driver of the ball- I have a hard time finding anything annoying about the width of a links like CS. In fact, I could argue that it provides me with significantly more places to play from over repeated rounds- and therefore less boring.

[Niall C]

Chris


Speaking as a fellow shite driver, I find I play better if I actually have something to aim at or have some other objective other than just giving it as big a blooter as possible. And as  iplay better I get more enjoyment. Without an objective my concentration goes, swiftly followed by my interest. Conditioning and nice views only go so far in my opinion.


As for trying to split links into different categories I tend to think CS would be in a category of possibly one. I can't think of a proper links like it, at least none that doesn't have shared fairways.


Niall

[David Davis]

I'm certainly in the category of links golfer given my home course is a links course, even if it's not always maintained as such. Regardless of how much I travel to play, which I simply love, I always, always miss links golf and am happy to come back to it. Indeed the varying conditions have a lot to do with it. Every day you play a different course, have to come up with completely different shots to do the same thing you did the day before from the same place. Have to work on controlling your ball flight into different winds. I'll manage about 100 rounds of links golf a year I guess.


I also love the open vistas and effect not having trees etc has on your distance judgement and other perceptions. I love it when you have to work through all the different ways you can hit the same shot to try and figure out which one you are most capable of, is safest and fits the conditions the best.


I too had an experience with a couple friends from France who were visiting my home club for the first time about two weeks ago. They were low hcp'ers 2 and 4 and had come down for the members guest back tee stroke play slaughter as we like to call it. The tournament was cancelled due to the approach of a severe summer storm. The kind that drops trees and creates havoc...had we been surfers this would of been our 100 year storm ala Point Break.


We went out anyway, all of us really wanted to. The weakest wind during our round was said to have been 90 km/hr, however there were continuous gusts of up to 120 km/hr according to the meteorological institute. Let's just say it was an experience, we all had a blast and while roads throughout the country were being shut down 3 golf lunatics were out trying to figure out how to get the ball in the hole. If you've never seen a hard right to left draw blow 75 yds to the right it's hard to imagine the power of storm winds.


We started at 2:00 pm and the storm hit it's peak shortly thereafter. The damage it caused was extensive and it went down in the books as the worst summer storm in 25 years here in the flatlands.


I received messages from my friends the following week about how great an experience it was, one of their most memorable rounds of golf ever.


I will say however, it's not at all good for your swing to play in high winds at least for me. My timing was gone for the next week.

[James Brown]

Perhaps one factor that makes links courses so appealing is that they have to be at least somewhat playable and enjoyable in very severe weather conditions, even for average players.  Then when the weather isn't severe such courses are still loads of fun, but aren't excessively difficult.

If a course is a burden and a slog in perfect weather, it has no appeal to me.

Yes, that was one of the main things I learned from spending a year overseas.  If you just build every hole so it's playable in a 30-MPH downwind, you've got something.


[And I'm sure someone will wonder:  but no, that's not a typo, I mean downwind.  Into the wind, it's just a matter of taking enough club, but it's never impossible to get the ball to stop when it lands.]

I would definitely second this notion of downwind playability being the limiting factor on wind.  With some experience you realize that downwind is so much more difficult to judge and execute, which is the opposite of what you think when you play links for the first time.   In some ways, the newer modern courses (Castle Stuart comes to mind) might do a better job of being playable in super high winds because they were designed with modern green speeds and turf conditions in mind.

[Brent Hutto]

Plus a strong wind from behind [no pun intended] seems to topple me forward as I start my downswing. I can often make better swings than usual "swinging into the wind" although of course the ball does not fly as far upwind. As a lefty the worst wind is one that's quartering from behind and left and is gusty. That's approaches a 50/50 chance of a mishit once the speed gets up to 20mph or so.

[Andrew Simpson]

Having lived and played on links courses in the North of Scotland where any wind below 15 mph is a rarity and 40-50 nothing special I laugh at 2 things, wind speed and ?club winds.
 I don't particularly know what a 2 club wind is because I don't have a calm day yardage. Even if I had a calm day I certainly don't have a calm day swing speed. (Yes getting a club fitting is a nightmare)
 As for wind speed, I've never heard anyone underestimate the speed yet! I've used a small wind gauge for many years and it was a shock at first how much I overestimated speed. If someone says they were playing in 50mph I'll only believe it if they took a reading, as for 80mph! Standing up is an achievement never mind playing golf.

[Tom_Doak]

Sean

IMO about 50 yards is correct which is basically what I was saying. I don't think clubs ever maintained fairways as wide as Castle Stuart, they just had sheep.

Generally speaking, I use 60 yards wide as a rough standard for being able to easily find the ball, whether it's nearly all fairway or some of it is rough.  I do agree with Niall's point that some of the most exciting shots are recovering from the edges of the course ... that's part of what I meant in my reply to Peter about having "texture" in the roughs ... and if you get the fairways wider than wide, then the potential for those shots is negated.

[Sean_A]

Sean

IMO about 50 yards is correct which is basically what I was saying. I don't think clubs ever maintained fairways as wide as Castle Stuart, they just had sheep.

Generally speaking, I use 60 yards wide as a rough standard for being able to easily find the ball, whether it's nearly all fairway or some of it is rough.  I do agree with Niall's point that some of the most exciting shots are recovering from the edges of the course ... that's part of what I meant in my reply to Peter about having "texture" in the roughs ... and if you get the fairways wider than wide, then the potential for those shots is negated.

I would like someone to point out where all these overly wide courses are.  I have yet to encounter a single example.


Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - in one sense I know exactly what you mean, and agree with your implied sentiments. But in another, I have played many a course of such little architectural interest (i.e. in terms of actually playing the game) that their 60 yards or so of fairway only accentuates the banality -- and the two 15 yard strips of uniform rough that narrow the fairway only lipstick on a pig. In such cases, I think I'd prefer a 30 yard wide fairway framed by OB or thick forest or water to such lack of interest, even if it meant losing a few golf balls. At least then such a course could be dignified as "penal" instead of merely "bad".
Peter

[Carl Nichols]

Sean - in one sense I know exactly what you mean, and agree with your implied sentiments. But in another, I have played many a course of such little architectural interest (i.e. in terms of actually playing the game) that the 60 yards or so of fairway only accentuates its banality -- and with the 15 yard wide strips of uniform rough they've grown on both sides merely lipstick on a pig. In such cases, I think I'd prefer a 30 yard wide fairway framed by OB or thick forest or water to such lack of interest, even if it meant losing a few golf balls. At least then such a course could be dignified by being "penal" instead of simply "bad".
Peter

Maybe it's because I grew up in New England playing tree-lined courses, and have now lived for 20 years of my life in the Mid Atlantic playing mostly tree-lined courses, but I don't think I've ever played a course with 90-yard wide playing corridors that I thought was terrible.   

[Tom_Doak]

I would like someone to point out where all these overly wide courses are.  I have yet to encounter a single example.

Sean:


I'll name one for you -- Corales, the Tom Fazio course in the Dominican Republic. 


The whole course is built at a massive scale -- big fairways and big elevation changes on what was all pretty flat ground.  There were some big fairway bunkers, but they were 20 or 30 yards to the side of center, so it was just bombs away on all but a couple of holes.  They were maintaining a ridiculous amount of grass there, close to 200 acres if I remember right.  [I know that sounds insane, but this was insanely wide.]

[Garland Bayley]

sheep

[Sean_A]

Sean - in one sense I know exactly what you mean, and agree with your implied sentiments. But in another, I have played many a course of such little architectural interest (i.e. in terms of actually playing the game) that their 60 yards or so of fairway only accentuates the banality -- and the two 15 yard strips of uniform rough that narrow the fairway only lipstick on a pig. In such cases, I think I'd prefer a 30 yard wide fairway framed by OB or thick forest or water to such lack of interest, even if it meant losing a few golf balls. At least then such a course could be dignified as "penal" instead of merely "bad".
Peter

Pietro


Well, if a course is bad its bad.  That isn't a width VS narrow issue.


Thanks Tom, there is always one exception which proves the rule.  I have seen the odd hole which made me wonder what was going on with the width, but never an entire course.


Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Is Castle Stuart a links? I thought it was built on farmers fields.

[BHoover]

Is Castle Stuart a links? I thought it was built on farmers fields.

What type of loam is beneath Castle Stuart?

[Niall C]

Mark/Brian,


From what I understand the top level was a field although not sure if it was arable or pasture. The bottom level was probably scrub I would imagine, similar to the adjoining area to the east. I imagine the soil underneath isn't that heavy but the site has been sand capped throughout from a seam of sand they found on site. Basically the big hole in front of the 13th tee if I remember correctly.


You can argue the toss whether that makes it a links but I'd contend that it certainly plays like one in terms of the ground conditions, even if the design isn't what I would call traditional.


Niall 

[Martin Toal]

Links golf is great if you accept that par is just a rough estimate and that you do not necessarily have any right to hit the ball directly onto the green or anywhere near the hole.


I used to be a member at Silloth, venue of the BUDA Cup a couple of years ago, and there are 2 par 5s back to back, neither very long but similar length and in opposite directions. I have played them on days when the first one was a driver, 3 wood and 5 or 6 iron into the wind and the second one was a 3 wood and 7 iron down the wind.


Likewise a par 3 of 135 yards which played anything between a sand iron and a 4 iron.


As Tom said, an every changing and rarely boring game./

[John Kirk]

Having lived and played on links courses in the North of Scotland where any wind below 15 mph is a rarity and 40-50 nothing special I laugh at 2 things, wind speed and ?club winds.
 I don't particularly know what a 2 club wind is because I don't have a calm day yardage. Even if I had a calm day I certainly don't have a calm day swing speed. (Yes getting a club fitting is a nightmare)
 As for wind speed, I've never heard anyone underestimate the speed yet! I've used a small wind gauge for many years and it was a shock at first how much I overestimated speed. If someone says they were playing in 50mph I'll only believe it if they took a reading, as for 80mph! Standing up is an achievement never mind playing golf.

Hi Andrew,

I agree.  My experience tells me 10 mph is a significant wind that reduces/increases ball flight by 5-10%, and causes balls to curve left or right.  20 mph is really windy, making it hard to control ball flight.

People tend to overestimate wind speed, and they also tend to underestimate green speeds, as measured by a Stimpmeter.

[John Kirk]

Mostly I've played ocean golf at Bandon Dunes, which is a bit different than true Scottish links golf.  But the wind blows and the ground is firm, and I suspect it yields a similar compliment of golf shots.

As a result of yearly visits to Bandon, plus a couple trips to Scotland, I developed what I consider an additional set of low trajectory "punch" shots for controlling the ball in the wind.  I tend to be more of a creative type of golfer, who doesn't enjoy hitting shots the same way every time.  When I am simply playing, and not wrapped up in swing thoughts, I look at the shot presented to me, see a picture of the ideal shape and trajectory, and then try to execute that shot.  I can't hit low fades, except with woods; in that case I have to take the second best solution.

Windy seashore golf changes every day, and offers a greater spectrum of shot shapes and trajectory.  Good courses also yield a more diverse set of stances to play from.  In short, it's a more complicated game.  I had a "eureka" moment at Dornoch in 1998 when I realized that.

With that said, I think the greatest thrill of links golf is being near the ocean, and just appreciating the awe and beauty of it.  A natural oceanside environment fills your senses - the smell, the sights, the sounds.

[Thomas Dai]

Worth noting how wind effects putting and the short game as well and how important HoC is on a links.

As to judgement of wind speed, there's a Dave Pelz test where he holds up a length of thick gauge chain and the angle away from vertical the chain hangs indicates wind strength.


Playing on a dry, firm, bouncy links in a strong wind with only 5-6 clubs is great way to appreciate historical aspects of yee olde game as well as additional shotmaking skills.


Atb

[Carson Pilcher]

Tom,


You hit the nail directly on the head.  I had the privilege of flying to Scotland on a weekly basis with my last job.  I would go and play the Old Course as regularly as I could (and the other links around East Lothian).  I have friends who are about to travel to St. Andrews and play TOC.  I BEG them to play it at least twice.  For me, the beauty of that course is that it never plays the same from day to day or even within a round.  It opens up with a creative cavas that you can work within for the rest of your life.

[Tim Fenchel]

Tom,


I've never played one round of links golf in my life...but a guy can dream can't he.  My problem is that I know I would love it so much more than the typical North American game...which I will address in second comment below.


However....more to your point.  I agree it is a general state of mind.  I think this is what appeals to me most about my other primary pastime of fly fishing.  Fish a river today and it might be idiots delight.  However, tomorrow...the game is sure to have changed.  A month from now the river WILL have changed.  Its a constant mental (and physical) unlocking of the puzzle if you will. To some degree this is true anytime you step on a golf course...but I imagine it is magnified and a much more enjoyable puzzle on links.

 I could forego all other golf for just the links. There is nothing better.

Ally. As admitted I have never played...but I know I would fall immediately in love. So what is a poor American supposed to do living in a similar mindset?!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,


I haven't read any of the replies, but, I don't think you can separate ""width" and "wind" from "links" golf.


I believe that width and wind are inherent in links golf.


One of the great things about golf is the enormous variable in the field of play.
That variable, that deviation from a rigid standard is an important facet in the lure of the game.


Does anyone prefer one tennis or basketball court over another with the same ferver that golfers seek to play different courses ?


Unlike bowling, tennis, football and to lesser degrees baseball and basketball, golf's venues are incredibly diverse.


Unlike bowling and basketball and to a lesser degree football, baseball and tennis, golf is only played outdoors where the weather has a dramatic impact on play.


So, when you combine the incredible variation in the field of play, with the incredible variation in the weather you get an inordinate number of diverse presentations/challenges.


Courses near large bodies of water benefit from the "wind"


Links courses are near large bodies of water, current or past.


"Width" is an inherent architectural requirement on windy sites if the game is to remain a reasonable and enjoyable challenge under ALL conditions.


"Links golf", "wind" and "Width" are inextricably woven into the fabric of the game.

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