Questions about "resurfacing" greens

[Carl Nichols]

My club (in suburban Washington DC) is considering "resurfacing" our greens.  Putting aside whether it's necessary to do so, I have two questions for the experts:

1.  I believe we have been working with the University of Maryland to assess the turf and consider alternatives.  If we wanted a second opinion, are there outfits people would recommend we talk to?

2.  If we do all 18 greens at once, approximately how long will the course be closed? 

Thanks in advance for the replies,

Carl

[Rory Connaughton]

Carl


  We gassed and re-seeded in September, 2011 and were putting by the middle of May, 2012.
Our grow in was bent A1/A4. The USGA agronomy section or any of the other major university turf programs are likely good resources for information and opinions.  Penn State, Michigan State, UNC Raleigh, Georgia, Ohio State . . .

[JNagle]

Carl -


There are an abundance of Agronomic Consultants who can assist in the evaluation process.  Many have used the
USGA Green Section along with Brookside Laboratories, Dick Bader, Terry Buchen, Paul Latshaw, Steve McDonald,
Tim Moraghan to name a few.

[Randy Thompson]

Carl


  We gassed and re-seeded in September, 2011 and were putting by the middle of May, 2012.
Our grow in was bent A1/A4. The USGA agronomy section or any of the other major university turf programs are likely good resources for information and opinions.  Penn State, Michigan State, UNC Raleigh, Georgia, Ohio State . . .

That seems like an awful long grow in, how far north are you.

Carl,
Lots of factors involved, lot will depend on the timing. But if the enviromental factors are in your favor, eight to ten weeks. Late summer has given me the best all around results. Quick germination with conditioning improving daily as the cooler fall weather arrives. And nine or ten months for the plant to mature before being subject to the heat of the following summer!

[Jeff Bergeron]

My club (in suburban Washington DC) is considering "resurfacing" our greens.  Putting aside whether it's necessary to do so, I have two questions for the experts:

1.  I believe we have been working with the University of Maryland to assess the turf and consider alternatives.  If we wanted a second opinion, are there outfits people would recommend we talk to?

2.  If we do all 18 greens at once, approximately how long will the course be closed? 

Thanks in advance for the replies,






Car









I recommend Dr. Trey Rogers of Michigan State University. He consulted at Caves Valley, Baltimore CC Five Farms, and almost every midwestern course.

[Steve Okula]

Carl


  We gassed and re-seeded in September, 2011 and were putting by the middle of May, 2012.
Our grow in was bent A1/A4. The USGA agronomy section or any of the other major university turf programs are likely good resources for information and opinions.  Penn State, Michigan State, UNC Raleigh, Georgia, Ohio State . . .

That seems like an awful long grow in, how far north are you.

Carl,
Lots of factors involved, lot will depend on the timing. But if the enviromental factors are in your favor, eight to ten weeks. Late summer has given me the best all around results. Quick germination with conditioning improving daily as the cooler fall weather arrives. And nine or ten months for the plant to mature before being subject to the heat of the following summer!

For any temperate zone, I would say nine months (September-May) is a perfectly reasonable grow-in period.

Randy, in case you've forgotten, in the northern hemisphere September 1-21 is late summer.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Just curious, are you considering rebuilding the greens - either to USGA spec, or by taking off and replacing top soil?

[Sinclair Eaddy]

Contact Elliott Dowling, agronomist, at the Mid Atlantic region, USGA Green Section. If you can ping me offline I will send you his contact information.

[Randy Thompson]

Carl


  We gassed and re-seeded in September, 2011 and were putting by the middle of May, 2012.
Our grow in was bent A1/A4. The USGA agronomy section or any of the other major university turf programs are likely good resources for information and opinions.  Penn State, Michigan State, UNC Raleigh, Georgia, Ohio State . . .

That seems like an awful long grow in, how far north are you.

Carl,
Lots of factors involved, lot will depend on the timing. But if the enviromental factors are in your favor, eight to ten weeks. Late summer has given me the best all around results. Quick germination with conditioning improving daily as the cooler fall weather arrives. And nine or ten months for the plant to mature before being subject to the heat of the following summer!

For any temperate zone, I would say nine months (September-May) is a perfectly reasonable grow-in period.

Randy, in case you've forgotten, in the northern hemisphere September 1-21 is late summer.

Steve,
I donīt understand these types of comments! Is it not possible to disagree without throwing in some Smart Ass comments?

[Steve Okula]

Carl


  We gassed and re-seeded in September, 2011 and were putting by the middle of May, 2012.
Our grow in was bent A1/A4. The USGA agronomy section or any of the other major university turf programs are likely good resources for information and opinions.  Penn State, Michigan State, UNC Raleigh, Georgia, Ohio State . . .

That seems like an awful long grow in, how far north are you.

Carl,
Lots of factors involved, lot will depend on the timing. But if the enviromental factors are in your favor, eight to ten weeks. Late summer has given me the best all around results. Quick germination with conditioning improving daily as the cooler fall weather arrives. And nine or ten months for the plant to mature before being subject to the heat of the following summer!

For any temperate zone, I would say nine months (September-May) is a perfectly reasonable grow-in period.

Randy, in case you've forgotten, in the northern hemisphere September 1-21 is late summer.

Steve,
I donīt understand these types of comments! Is it not possible to disagree without throwing in some Smart Ass comments?

Sorry, Randy. It was meant as gentle kidding. Obviously it came ot wrong. My apologies, no offense intended.

[Rory Connaughton]

Randy,

I'm in Pennsylvania. Of that period, we probably only had 15 weeks of good growing weather. Dormant from mid November into the second week of April. I thought the turnaround was pretty fast, actually.

Do contact Elliot Dowling.  Good guy and very knowledgeable.

[Carl Nichols]

   Just curious, are you considering rebuilding the greens - either to USGA spec, or by taking off and replacing top soil?

Jim:
I'm not sure that decision has been made yet. 

[Randy Thompson]

Thanks Rory and thanks Steve for the clariifcation. Being in Pennsylvania, I can see that as a typical grow in, the fall typically comes on pretty fast in that area.
Carl,
In conclusions, there are many qualified consultants to consider and most will outline a pretty similar program. The plant will need nine months to a year to mature and the difference in opinions will be when you can open and not cause the maturation process to stop or worst go backwards and that will depend a lot on the number of rounds per day your going to have when first opening. Good luck!

[Anthony_Nysse]

Its quite common from a course that is regressing to use the model of "close the day after Labor day, open Memorial day week." That would be a Sept-May closure. Very common and even a few in Detroit and Chicago closing now to regrass. . Dr. Rogers from Michigan State, USGA, Tim Morghan, Paul Latshaw, Sr. would all be great consultants. Dr. Rogers has been on for front for some of the newer bentgrasses.

[Bill Brightly]

I belong to a course where two sets of green were re-grassed. (One re-built to USGA spec with A1/A4 and the other re-grassed with a different type of bent. Sorry, do not know what type.) Both greens now look great and putt beautifully, but here is one thing I noticed: it is nearly impossible to fix ballmarks for the first two or three years. The grass tends to "explode" a bit. I describe the new greens as "fussy" and they will show the wear no matter how diligent the membership is with repairing ballmarks. Nothing better than a good poa/bent mixed green to receive iron shots, IMHO. However, I do understand the problems with poa in the hot summer months.

[Jerry Kluger]

Carl: Army Navy did this with all 54 holes and was quite successful.  You might want to contact Richard Mandel in the Pinehurst area as he did the entire restoration project. I visited the course with Richard while the work was being done and as I recall the superintendent was able to do the green resurfacing on his own. 

[Tom_Doak]

Its quite common from a course that is regressing to use the model of "close the day after Labor day, open Memorial day week." That would be a Sept-May closure. Very common and even a few in Detroit and Chicago closing now to regrass. . Dr. Rogers from Michigan State, USGA, Tim Morghan, Paul Latshaw, Sr. would all be great consultants. Dr. Rogers has been on for front for some of the newer bentgrasses.

It IS quite common -- that's when all clubs want to do reconstruction work of any kind -- but it only works well if you are re-seeding the greens and not rebuilding them.  If you're rebuilding them, it's way better to close around the first of August to give time to re-shape them all and still plant them in early September.  If you start rebuilding on September 7th, good luck getting much germination before the first frost!


We started rebuilding the greens at The Country Club of Detroit in early August, and they were back playing on them the end of May the next year.  By contrast, we started rebuilding the greens at Medinah No. 1 in early October of 2012 [the day after the Ryder Cup], and they were back playing on those in June -- of 2014.  [Obviously, we did a lot more work than just the greens there, but between the late start and a harsh winter and a soggy spring, they wouldn't have had greens to putt on anytime in 2013, even if that had been the scope of the project.  Starting late in the fall and planting in the spring is a crapshoot on a construction schedule.]

[Anthony_Nysse]

Its quite common from a course that is regressing to use the model of "close the day after Labor day, open Memorial day week." That would be a Sept-May closure. Very common and even a few in Detroit and Chicago closing now to regrass. . Dr. Rogers from Michigan State, USGA, Tim Morghan, Paul Latshaw, Sr. would all be great consultants. Dr. Rogers has been on for front for some of the newer bentgrasses.

It IS quite common -- that's when all clubs want to do reconstruction work of any kind -- but it only works well if you are re-seeding the greens and not rebuilding them.  If you're rebuilding them, it's way better to close around the first of August to give time to re-shape them all and still plant them in early September.  If you start rebuilding on September 7th, good luck getting much germination before the first frost!


We started rebuilding the greens at The Country Club of Detroit in early August, and they were back playing on them the end of May the next year.  By contrast, we started rebuilding the greens at Medinah No. 1 in early October of 2012 [the day after the Ryder Cup], and they were back playing on those in June -- of 2014.  [Obviously, we did a lot more work than just the greens there, but between the late start and a harsh winter and a soggy spring, they wouldn't have had greens to putt on anytime in 2013, even if that had been the scope of the project.  Starting late in the fall and planting in the spring is a crapshoot on a construction schedule.]

No doubt, more time would be needed for a reconstruction, but the question was about resurfacing. Skokie in Chicago is resurfacing, much like Wynsrone did last fall. Close in August and open the follow year, late spring. Briarwood dit the same. Bob O link is a complete redo. Not sure when their time table is.

[Steve Pozaric]

We are in Dt. Louis and our club gassed and regressed in 2010-2011.  Closed mid September and opened mid May.  Used 007 bent for the greens and collars. 


Before choosing, we did a test of A1, a1/4 and 007.  Also consulting with the USGA.