[Tim_Weiman]

Sean,


I didn't suggest uniqueness meant greatness. Nor was I referring to features. The uniqueness I was referring to was the character of a golf course.


Pat Mucci raised the subject of Ross and Tillinghast. That certainly adds to the discussion. However, if you play Quaker Ridge and then go down the street to Winged Foot I doubt many would think they were courses of the same character, despite the two being among Tillinghast's best courses and being so close to one another.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

You have to remember that Winged Foot is not today, architecturally, what it was on opening day.  Others have plied their trade on the courses over the years.

There is a common, recognizable, architectural theme that runs through Winged Foot West, Quaker Ridge, Fenway and Winged Foot East.

If you're fortunate to play those courses often, it becomes more apparent.

[Sean_A]

Tim


I am not suggesting that you believe uniquensss equals greatness.  I also don't necessarily think uniqueness is required for greatness.  What I am suggesting is that on a broad spectrum for instance Merion isn't materially different from Oakland Hills.  They have far more in common in than not and neither course possesses features which we can say only can be found on those properties.  So, OH and Merion are not in anyway unique, but are they still great?  I think so, hence I do think the concept of sui generis (uniqueness?) is over-valued when considering greatness. 

So my answer to your original question is yes, many of the great courses do resemble each other on the broad scales architecture, terrain and turf.  It is very difficult to be truly unique and I don't buy that Merion or Oakland Hills are unique just because they are great.

Ciao 

Ciao

[Ian Andrew]

Sean,


Whhaaaattt...?


Merion is one of the few singular stand alone statements in golf architecture.
It begins with a unique rhythm signature.
There is no match for that aspect alone and it impacts the entire experience from the 1st tee...


There are many smaller aspects from the carry angles, quarry, use of creeks and slopes, etc.
It's so chalked full of good details that I've walked the course three times now (beyond multiple plays).

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat,


Fenway is a gap in my golf architecture education, sadly, from what I hear. But, I would push back on on Winged Foot West (and possibly also East) relative to Quaker Ridge. True, there are some common architectural themes, Not surpring, I guess. But, I do find them different in character. Winged Foot strikes me as unabashedly intended for championship golf. I don't consider the site especially blessed. What is striking is the architecture, especially the greens and green complexes overall. They really come across as a stern test.


To me, however, Quaker Ridge, while also being a great test, has an overall pleasantness about the place I just never found or observed at Winged Foot. Put another way, Quaker Ridge is the course I rather play on a regular basis while Winged Foot seems like the place to really have your skills tested knowing that the experience is likely to be humbling.


Sean,


Yes, a course could be great without being unique. But, as Tom Doak put it, when you consider the greatest of the great, by and large they do have their own character, IMO.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,
 
You're perspective ignores a very, very significant factor.
 
The U.S. Opens.
 
The fairways at Winged Foot West have been reduced to ribbons, winding their way over the terrain.
 
Winged Foot West wasn't always that way.
As succeeding Opens were hosted, trees were planted and fairways narrowed.
 
Neither Quaker Ridge nor Fenway (yard for yard a more difficult course) have been subjected to the ether.
 
When I first took my youngest son to play WFW when he was 13 or 14, on the 1st tee he asked me, "Dad, what happened to the fairways ?"  He was used to the generous fairways of his home club, not the narrow winding fairways at WFW.
 
So, your perspective, although apt today, has to be adjusted to account for the lasting architectural impact that's the result of hosting numerous U.S. Opens.
 
P.S.  Fenway is a wonderful golf course.  It starts off with a drivable par 4,
       then, hold on to your hat.

[Tom_Doak]

This thread seems to be focusing a bit too much on the world "unique," and not enough on the other word, "character."


If you really want to be picky, there are almost no courses that are unique ... nearly all of them now have 18 tees and 18 greens and defined fairways and some sort of bunkers that aren't entirely original.  [The Old Course is the closest to unique that I know; its quirks and idiosyncrasies are not as easily imitated as, say, the sandy wastes of Pine Valley or the huge scale of Augusta.]


The matter of character, though, is how a course combines those elements and its setting to produce a sense of place, and a sense that the course stands for something.  Winged Foot West certainly has character, or it wouldn't be ranked among the great courses ... it's just that a big part of its character is "tough as nails," which so many other courses have tried to achieve in their own place and time, that it's tougher to call its character "unique".


Royal County Down is another course that seems silly to bring up in this context.  Of course there are other courses with blind tee shots, with big dunes, with hairy bunkers, or with views of the mountains, but there is none other that feels much like County Down, to me.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom,

If you don't mind me saying, your Mom taught you well.

Your post summed up what I have been trying to express as well as I could have imagined.

[Sean_A]

Sean,


Whhaaaattt...?


Merion is one of the few singular stand alone statements in golf architecture.
It begins with a unique rhythm signature.
There is no match for that aspect alone and it impacts the entire experience from the 1st tee...


There are many smaller aspects from the carry angles, quarry, use of creeks and slopes, etc.
It's so chalked full of good details that I've walked the course three times now (beyond multiple plays).

Nah, Merion is just parkland done very, very well.  There is nothing there that I can't find someplace else.  I have no idea what unique rhythm signature means, but ever course has its personal rhythm.  Some we enjoy more than others...personal preference. 


Ciao

[George Pazin]

How does one define unique character? Does one lose one's unique character when others imitate, even if the imitators aren't as good?

I struggle with the notion of uniqueness, as few things in life are unique as one might think. As some comedian said, if you're a one in a million kind of guy, there's a thousand guys just like you walking around in China...

My wife's voice is a gift from God. I've never heard anyone whose voice compares, live, on the radio, on the tube, or on the world wide interweb. I've said many times to many people around here that no one else in Pittsburgh could be as good, simply because the odds of having more than one such voice in Pittsburgh are stacked astronomically against that. Yet at a funeral this morning, I had a brief thought that I might be wrong, when I heard another woman sing.

The notion of uniqueness lies too much within the observer to be a true separator, imho. What's unique to one isn't always that way to another. Someone posted on here that their friend felt all of the holes at Sand Hills are the same. I suppose that doesn't mean the course doesn't possess a unique character, but it does reveal the limitations of an observer-based methodology.

[George Pazin]

This thread seems to be focusing a bit too much on the world "unique," and not enough on the other word, "character."


If you really want to be picky, there are almost no courses that are unique ... nearly all of them now have 18 tees and 18 greens and defined fairways and some sort of bunkers that aren't entirely original.  [The Old Course is the closest to unique that I know; its quirks and idiosyncrasies are not as easily imitated as, say, the sandy wastes of Pine Valley or the huge scale of Augusta.]


The matter of character, though, is how a course combines those elements and its setting to produce a sense of place, and a sense that the course stands for something.  Winged Foot West certainly has character, or it wouldn't be ranked among the great courses ... it's just that a big part of its character is "tough as nails," which so many other courses have tried to achieve in their own place and time, that it's tougher to call its character "unique".


Royal County Down is another course that seems silly to bring up in this context.  Of course there are other courses with blind tee shots, with big dunes, with hairy bunkers, or with views of the mountains, but there is none other that feels much like County Down, to me.

I wrote my response before reading the others, as I often do. I like this response from Tom, and I think it both complements and rebuts my own (non-unique) ideas.

[Tim_Weiman]

George,


I don't think anyone could have put it better than Tom.

[George Pazin]

True, but I do think even character is too reliant upon the skills of the observer. There are probably a lot of golfers - maybe even most - who wouldn't sense any differences in character between all of the great American parkland course (Merion, WFW, Oakmont, Oakland Hills, etc) or the great links of Scotland, or the great Heathland courses, etc.

[Tim_Weiman]

George,


I know you are quite familiar with Oakmont. Does it feel like Merion to you?


But, of course, our own Pat Mucci - who is certainly well travelled - seemed to suggest Winged Foot was of a similar character to Quaker Ridge, if not today, than when it was built. I just can't see that.

[Patrick_Mucci]

[size=78%]date=1439235038][/size][/font]


[/size]Tim,[size=78%]

[/size]I don't see any similarity in architecture/style between Oakmont and Merion.  [size=78%]

[/size]I do see similarities between WF and QR[size=78%]

[/size]What amazes me is the quality of those four (4) courses[size=78%]




George,


I know you are quite familiar with Oakmont. Does it feel like Merion to you?


But, of course, our own Pat Mucci - who is certainly well travelled - seemed to suggest Winged Foot was of a similar character to Quaker Ridge, if not today, than when it was built. I just can't see that.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()