[Mike Bowen]

I know it's been discussed before but I can't find anything recent.  If I'm mistaken please point me to that thread.  That being said...


That time of year again when we start to plan out winter destination courses.  I am planning a trip for the start of November and looking for some insight.  I am staying at Encanterra and will probably play there a handful of times (any singles looking for a game please DM me or email me at mikedbowen@gmail.com).  We are also looking at Gold Canyon, We-Ko-Pa, Southern Dunes, Dove Mountain, Sewailo, and of course Apache Stronghold.


I am most excited about We-Ko-Pa and Southern Dunes.  I am CPGA and plan on emailing some of the privates but not expecting to have much luck.  More than anything I'm looking to see something that has architectural merit and isn't just well manicured cart golf.  I was very impressed with Apache Stronghold and hope to find it going in the right direction.  Are there any other hidden gems?


I am also interested to see how different courses blend the surrounding desert or waste areas with the manicured turf.  I was at the Waste Management tournament and found it kind of interesting how the desert had a kitty litter feel to it.

[Jason Topp]

Looks ilke a good list.  Here are courses I like that fall outside of the typical destination resorts:


I often play Vistal which I think is a very good course on the wrong side of town: http://www.vistalgolfclub.com


Papago is definitely worth playing if you have not already done so.



While the golf holes are nothing special, I love the setting at Kino Springs down near Nogales. It is set in old ranch country.  http://www.kinospringsgc.com

[Josh Tarble]

Talking Stick North is a must.  I don't love desert courses and it was definitely the most enjoyable we played on our trip.

[BHoover]

I've played Sunridge Canyon a couple times and always enjoyed it. It's a Keith Foster design that has a particularly interesting back nine.

[Jud_T]

Talking Stick North is a must.  I don't love desert courses and it was definitely the most enjoyable we played on our trip.

+1

[Mike Bowen]

I didn't realize Talking Stick was a must play.  I assumed it was relatively bland.  What's good about it?


Kino Springs looks awesome.  I am looking into playing Kino and then also wandering into Mexico for the afternoon.  Is this something worth doing?

[Josh Tarble]

Mike,
In the grand scheme of world golf, TSN may not be a world beater, but in desert golf it is incredibly unique and really, really fun.  Here are my reasons why its so good:


1.  Use of boundaries as hazards - TSN is worth playing almost for hole #2 alone.  But also 3 and 12 are fantastic examples of using OOB as a hazard
2.  Use of width - TSN is wide, but it's all actual strategic width, angles matter.  Also width in the desert is a rarity
3.  Bunker - the bunkering at TSN is fantastic.  Always strategic placement
4.  Conditioning - this was the most F&F course we played
5.  Par 4s - a fantastic collection of par 4s with a great mix of short and long

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike,


Of the courses mentioned so far by others, Papago & Talking Stick North are well worth a visit. I'm not a big fan of Sewailo. The former Vista Verde, also known as Tegavah but now known as Trilogy at Verde River Ranch is also worth a visit.


If you're willing to travel in another direction, Wickenburg Ranch is worth the travel time. I'm not a big fan of Quintero. Also, try some in the West Valley of PHX- Verrado, GC Estrella or even Wigwam Gold.


Maryvale is currently under renovation by John Fought and may not be open during your visit.

[Jeff Shelman]

I am also a fan of TSN. While it isn't as good as We-Ko-Pa Saguaro, it is often $50-$100 less.


They let you walk, there are a bunch of fun/good holes and I've had good pace of play experiences there.

[Bill_McBride]

I am also a fan of TSN. While it isn't as good as We-Ko-Pa Saguaro, it is often $50-$100 less.


They let you walk, there are a bunch of fun/good holes and I've had good pace of play experiences there.

Easy walk.  Several good central hazards.   TS South to me was quite a bit less interesting. 

[JJShanley]

I enjoyed Wigwam Gold and Papago during my otherwise disappointing visit to Phoenix to watch ND lose to ASU last November.


I'd chosen Wigwam because my father had played there in the 1970s, and wore a hat from there for years.  It lived up to expectations.

[MCirba]

The former Vista Verde, also known as Tegavah but now known as Trilogy at Verde River Ranch is also worth a visit.

What Marketing brain-surgeon came up with that idiocy, Steve?   Are there now three courses there, or just another multi-syllabic, hard-to-remember, meaningless, pretentious-sounding golf course name?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike,


Shea Homes is the third owner. Here's the genealogy:


http://www.azcentral.com/story/money/real-estate/catherine-reagor/2014/10/21/shea-homes-buys-north-scottsdale-development-mil/17693257/

[Tom Yost]

I often play Vistal which I think is a very good course on the wrong side of town: http://www.vistalgolfclub.com

Sadly, Vistal has closed.  A friend told me it will be developed into real estate.  I could find no confirmation of such searching online with the exception of a May 12 post on their facebook page:
"We are disappointed to announce that Vistal Golf Club will close for the summer.  We do not know when or if we will reopen in the fall.   If you have gift certificates, rain checks, or letters for free rounds, we encourage you to come use them before the end of the month. Thank you to all of our loyal customers for your support over the years.  We hope you'll support our staff as they search for new employment opportunities."

I am also interested to see how different courses blend the surrounding desert or waste areas with the manicured turf.  I was at the Waste Management tournament and found it kind of interesting how the desert had a kitty litter feel to it.

One of my favorite features at Talking Stick North is the manner that Bill Coore implemented the transitions from turf to native. They did a remarkable job to avoid the typical hard transition.  You will observe similar out at We-Ko-Pa Saguaro. 

TSN is sometimes overlooked because it does not offer the splendid vistas, bold landscape or dramatic natural surroundings that many of the tourist oriented foothills courses feature.  What is does offer is pure golf.

[Jeff Evagues]

I was underwhelmed with TSN. I will put a vote in for Vista Verde/Tegavah.

[Mike Wagner]

All solid suggestions - I would have Papago as a must. You can't find architecture like it in Phoenix.  Ambient is pretty fun as well.

[Andy Shulman]

Another vote for Talking Stick-North.  The most memorable holes are #2 (the approach will make you pucker unless you're really good...and straight) and #12 (a good risk-reward hole).  Ran's write-up in the Courses by Country section may help you decide whether it will appeal to your group.


As for We-Ko-Pa, both courses are beautiful, secluded and very well maintained, I didn't see the GCA difference (other than a higher price point) between the pair and several other courses in the PHX area.


One other longshot nominee is Legend Trail in north Scottsdale.  I haven't played there in many years, but like the layout.  It's in amongst a lot of housing, so that may lessen its appeal.

[Tom_Doak]

I know it's been discussed before but I can't find anything recent.  If I'm mistaken please point me to that thread.  That being said...


That time of year again when we start to plan out winter destination courses.  I am planning a trip for the start of November and looking for some insight.

Shameless plug:  volume 2 of The Confidential Guide, out at the end of September, covers all of the winter destination courses in this hemisphere.


A sampling of Arizona course ratings:


We Ko Pa (Saguaro)   - 8 6 6
Desert Forest     7 7 - 6
Desert Highlands     7 - - -
Talking Stick (North)    7 - 5 -
Troon     6 - 6 6
Ventana Canyon (Mountain)     6 - 6 -
Apache Stronghold     6 - - -
Sun Ridge Canyon     6 - - -
Estancia     5 - 7 6


We are not as well-traveled in Arizona as we are in most locales ... I can't believe I'm the only one to see Desert Highlands!

[Joey Chase]

I visited Desert Forest last winter and absolutely loved the place.  The golf course was a blast to play and found the whole understated nature of the place to be everything I like in club.  I am a bit surprised at the lack of love for the place here.  It seems to be everything that should be loved about golf, a pure golf club, with a membership that loves to play, and nothing but quality, unpretentious golf.  Natural and the least constructed golf course I have played in Arizona.  Having played many, many 7's in the confidential guide, there are a good number I would pass up to go back to Desert Forest, just a great place and they are all about their golf course.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: Did you guys play Desert Forest before or after the renovations? Were you referring to Troon CC or Troon North courses? Did you rate any of the courses at Desert Mountain? 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom: Did you guys play Desert Forest before or after the renovations? Were you referring to Troon CC or Troon North courses? Did you rate any of the courses at Desert Mountain?

I think Ran might have played Desert Forest after the renovations, the rest of our grades would be before them.


Troon is Troon ... I have only seen one of the two courses at Troon North and did not rate it as highly.  I've played the first three courses at Desert Mountain [Renegade, Cochise and Geronimo] and again, don't rate any of them very highly.

[Forrest Richardson]

Oakcreek CC in Sedona is a gem. RTJ, Sr. and very good surroundings. Southern Dunes - have not played since Schmidt-Curley re-worked their bunkers. Glad to see the Wogwam Gold mentioned. I hear Tom Lehman is doing something to the bunkers. We had them all back to the 1967 RTJ, Sr. aerials, including depths and crisp edging. Not sure if this is being changed. I hope not. Mr. Jones might disapprove.


If you can manage a tee time, The Rim Club is a favorite. And, not to be missed, a round at the TPC Scottsdale - just to say you experienced the course and can identify as the Phoenix Open unfolds to hoodlums each year.

[Bill_McBride]

Oakcreek CC in Sedona is a gem. RTJ, Sr. and very good surroundings. Southern Dunes - have not played since Schmidt-Curley re-worked their bunkers. Glad to see the Wogwam Gold mentioned. I hear Tom Lehman is doing something to the bunkers. We had them all back to the 1967 RTJ, Sr. aerials, including depths and crisp edging. Not sure if this is being changed. I hope not. Mr. Jones might disapprove.


If you can manage a tee time, The Rim Club is a favorite. And, not to be missed, a round at the TPC Scottsdale - just to say you experienced the course and can identify as the Phoenix Open unfolds to hoodlums each year.

The TPC sister course across the street is also a whole lot of fun.  I really enjoyed it more than the tournament course. 


Forrest, didn't we play Southern Dunes after the redo?   Not sure when that happened. 

[Forrest Richardson]

We did not - at least not after the most recent, which was just this year as I recall.

[Jerry Kluger]

I played Southern Dunes - refreshingly different as it isn't the typical desert target golf.


Desert Forest is far more difficult since their renovation and many of the members are rather upset with what was done.

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