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MCirba

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For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« on: August 05, 2015, 09:43:27 AM »
...the most strategic finishing hole in golf?

I'm not quite as enamored of WS as many, yet in re-watching the PGA Championship from a few years back last night I was struck by how the bizarrely wild and creatively conceived challenges of the 18th hole there led to such nail-biting and exciting play by those in contention. 

I can't think of another finishing hole played during Major championships that could lead to such an array of options, outcomes, and possibilities for disaster or heroism as that crazily twisting hole that also features a green that is set at right angles to play with various ears and lobes where hole locations could provide additional enormous variability.

As criticized as that hole sometimes is, I suspect Pete Dye feels it's one of his very best and if I were to try and share with someone why Pete is a certifiable genius I'd probably take them out and showcase that hole.   

It is certainly the antithesis to conventional.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Joe Bausch

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Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2015, 10:42:45 AM »
Starting from this point are some figures/pictures to illuminate the thread:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/WhistlingStraits/pages/page_110.html?


Or here is the starting point of my photo album from a few years ago of WS:


http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/WhistlingStraits/
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 10:45:07 AM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Ken Fry

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Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2015, 11:12:51 AM »
Mike,
 
I've always felt #5 and #18 are two of the worst holes on a "world class" course I can recall.
 
The tweeking to 18 has not solved playability issues.  The left fairway that was added to entice guys to risk flying the bunker complex on their drives never materialized.  If players end up there, it's by mistake.  The right fairway by the green allows for a weak bail out or advancing the ball based on how severe the rough is.  That's the only concession of the hole.
 
Overall the hole rewards bombers.  Hit the drive as close to the end of the fairway and the player is left with about 180 yards in.  Half the field is hitting 3 wood to hybrid clubs in.  Isn't this what most people complain about with modern architecture?
 
The finish to the 2010 PGA was exciting because what happened up to that hole.  Most guys were just trying to avoid a train wreck on 18.  Fair is fair and everyone has to play 18.  I just believe the advantages to the longest hitters is too great for me to accept the hole.
 
Ken

MCirba

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Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2015, 11:46:57 AM »
Ken,

All legitimate criticisms, but wouldn't you say that the angles on the tee shot are so awkward as to create confusion and difficulty of execution?   Once the tee shot is anything but perfectly placed comes the strategic question of what exactly to do/attempt with the second shot and so on.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Greg Tallman

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Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2015, 12:09:27 PM »
Mike,
 
I've always felt #5 and #18 are two of the worst holes on a "world class" course I can recall.
 
The tweeking to 18 has not solved playability issues.  The left fairway that was added to entice guys to risk flying the bunker complex on their drives never materialized.  If players end up there, it's by mistake.  The right fairway by the green allows for a weak bail out or advancing the ball based on how severe the rough is.  That's the only concession of the hole.
 
Overall the hole rewards bombers.  Hit the drive as close to the end of the fairway and the player is left with about 180 yards in.  Half the field is hitting 3 wood to hybrid clubs in.  Isn't this what most people complain about with modern architecture?
 
The finish to the 2010 PGA was exciting because what happened up to that hole.  Most guys were just trying to avoid a train wreck on 18.  Fair is fair and everyone has to play 18.  I just believe the advantages to the longest hitters is too great for me to accept the hole.
 
Ken

The hole rewards bombers yet the games premier bombers, DJ and Bubba, met their demise on that very hole.

Quite simply it's a great half par hole.

I'm glad Rory cut his hair.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 01:53:33 PM by Greg Tallman »

Jason Thurman

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Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2015, 12:21:40 PM »
To be fair, Dustin's demise probably had a lot more to do with it being the 72nd hole of a major than it did any architectural significance. That dude could choke on a snorkel.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Ken Fry

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Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2015, 03:22:14 PM »

All legitimate criticisms, but wouldn't you say that the angles on the tee shot are so awkward as to create confusion and difficulty of execution?   Once the tee shot is anything but perfectly placed comes the strategic question of what exactly to do/attempt with the second shot and so on.


I never felt the tee shot was awkward, but the effective fairway is rather tight.  It surprised me how many of the pros were in the right rough off their drives but the danger of going left at all I'm sure has that effect.  Cape style tee shots can be awkward due to the sharp angle into the fairway but that's not the case here.  The only mental challenge on 18 at WS is you know you have to absolutely nail your drive.

The hole rewards bombers yet the games premier bombers, DJ and Bubba, met their demise on that very hole.

Quite simply it's a great half par hole.

I'm glad Rory cut his hair.


Greg,

They both met their demise but for very different reasons.  Why DJ ever hit driver from the tee they were playing is beyond me.  He blocked his tee shot 50 yards right.  The fact he hit a 6 iron from that bunker almost to the green is insane.  Bubba flat out chocked.  His 2nd shot came up so far short, it proved it was a bad choice/bad execution.  Neither situation extols the virtues of the hole's greatness.

Funny, my wife said the same thing about Rory's hair!!

Ken

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2015, 03:39:44 PM »
We can definitely all agree about Rory's hair.   Egads.   :-X

Ken, for discussion purposes, might I point out something inconsistent in your statement?   You said the only mental consideration is to nail your drive, presumably meaning long, yet also stated that the fairway gets narrow and that it gets in your head to make sure you don't go left.

You, of course, can feel free tell me that consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.   ;D
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Matt Glore

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Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2015, 04:16:19 PM »
From watching last night the strategy off the tee looked to favor holding the line as near to the left of the fairway as possible to gain distance but brings disaster into played too far left.
Elkington's drive was way down there, while Rory and others took a safer line right.  The balls to the right looked to hit an up slope.


Was the left fairway ever in play during the tournament?  I played there in 2012 and that fairway was grown in already.  The green complex is a disaster, but it works for championship golf. 

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2015, 04:44:09 PM »
no way
It's all about the golf!

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2015, 04:56:18 PM »
I see the left fairway as simply a bail out option for the second shot, not the drive, although it may have simply evolved that way from the original intent. 

The left fairway is also an option for those playing the hole from mere mortal tees in the 418 and less range.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Josh Tarble

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Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2015, 05:50:14 PM »
Mike,
I completely agree with you.  I am apparently one of the great unwashed because I love the hole - especially for championship play.




I don't mean to pick on you Ken, but I think you are making the case for the hole without even meaning to do so:


"The only mental challenge on 18 at WS is you know you have to absolutely nail your drive."


I only quote that because I ask, isn't that exactly what you want from the 18th hole of a major championship?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 06:22:15 PM by Josh Tarble »

Carl Nichols

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Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2015, 05:58:32 PM »
We can definitely all agree about Rory's hair.   Egads.   :-X

Ken, for discussion purposes, might I point out something inconsistent in your statement?   You said the only mental consideration is to nail your drive, presumably meaning long, yet also stated that the fairway gets narrow and that it gets in your head to make sure you don't go left.

You, of course, can feel free tell me that foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.   ;D


You forgot a word that many omit from that quote.   

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2015, 06:07:33 PM »
Mike:


I have never played the hole myself, but I have yet to see anyone in response to your question define the strategic challenges of the hole.  It's certainly a CHALLENGING finishing hole, but that's something else again.  What's the strategy to which your refer?

Terry Lavin

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Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2015, 06:15:22 PM »
it would fit in at Chambers Bay.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2015, 06:59:34 PM »
Ok, great was not the correct word choice. It is interesting and created some, well, interesting moments in 2010.

Had forgotten how close ZJ came that week... might have to draft him in round one this time around. 

BCowan

Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2015, 09:05:57 PM »
it would fit in at Chambers Bay.

I didn't know that Chambers Bay had water hazards on the course.  Also, isn't someone I know big on playing a course before they babble on about it?  Classic double talkin jive

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2015, 09:22:42 PM »

Ken, for discussion purposes, might I point out something inconsistent in your statement?   You said the only mental consideration is to nail your drive, presumably meaning long, yet also stated that the fairway gets narrow and that it gets in your head to make sure you don't go left.

You, of course, can feel free tell me that consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.   ;D


Tom beat me to the point I was making with my statements.  The strategy involved is limited.  Hit a tight fairway with the longest tee shot you can muster.  The bottom line for me is 18 is tough for the sake of being tough.  I think Dye tried something "edgy" and it didn't work out.

Josh thinks I'm making the case for the merits of the hole.  Only if you're the type that likes watching the world's best players get beat down.  Some people use to watch the old US Opens for this exact reason.  Frankly, I want to see how good the players are, not how lucky they can get.  18 has too much hit and hope.

Now about my hobgoblins in my little mind.....   ;D

Ken

Josh Tarble

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Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2015, 08:36:16 AM »
Ken,
There is a certain element of hit and hope with the driver.  But I think the strategy is really in the distance of the drive.  It's a pretty easy tee ball if you want to lay back, but that makes the second shot pretty tough.  If you want to hit driver, it's a very small landing area where you must be committed to your line, if you miss it is certainly hope for a lucky lie after that. 


And maybe this isn't strategy more than deception, but I think Dye does an excellent job of getting in the pros head and causing doubt.  Maybe I'm confusing that with strategy, but regardless I think it's a great closing hole.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2015, 11:46:28 AM »
Mike:

I have never played the hole myself, but I have yet to see anyone in response to your question define the strategic challenges of the hole.  It's certainly a CHALLENGING finishing hole, but that's something else again.  What's the strategy to which your refer?

Tom,

I'll take a crack at it.   I'm certainly not a tour pro but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last weekend and have a beard to pull.   ;)

Let me first throw up the hole diagram for reference;




For the average golfer playing from the 417 or less yard tees, the drive is pretty straightforward although as some mentioned, it's a narrowing as you go proposition and drives longer than 260 or so risk cascading down into the gorge.   Given the windy site, the firm conditions, and the downhill slope in the landing area that's not as big a drive as it sounds so the prudent play is likely to step back to a 3-wood, but not many of us ever make that smart decision.    Assuming one has placed the tee ball properly the approach is merely a question of how much to bite off or whether to bail right.

The tour player has a bit of a different proposition from the tee.   The championship tees are placed well over on the left which changes the angle of attack for the drive and becomes a bite-off-as-much-as-you-dare proposition, again knowing that a drive down the right fairway running slightly over 300 yards risks going down the creek.    That's one of the reasons that makes Dustin Johnson's decision to take driver down the right side there so perplexing.   One could also try the 300 yard carry down the left side to take the creek out of play but that leaves a very poor angle of approach with limited visibility to the green, particularly to the front-left pin utilized during the final round.   By contrast, the upper right side fairway offers a good view down to the green and even a possibility of using the right fairway down near the green to run the ball in from that side.

For both levels of player, it's when the drive isn't well placed that the fun begins, as we saw in the last PGA championship.   Do you risk going for the green from an iffy sidehill/downhill lie in the rough or sand?   We saw that to be a pretty low-percentage success rate, although it's still very tempting as the distance is very achievable.   Do you lay up down the left hand fairway to take all the trouble out of play, again leaving a poor angle for the third?   Do you try to bail out to the right side of fairway, which depending on the hole location may leave a third to an inaccessible hole location, such as the back right corner?   

With a major title on the line, I think the hole plays excellently for top players who are indeed challenged but also need to think straight as they weigh these options.   These guys have the ability to pull off any of the challenging shots i just described yet not all the time as witnessed in the last PGA Championship.

Here's the hole from behind for perspective, that hopefully illustrates the various options.   In my opinion, the hole forces decisions to be made and offers multiple choices in terms of both distance and direction on both the drive and approach shots.   Thanks again to Joe Bausch for the photos.


« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 11:49:06 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2015, 01:02:45 PM »
If you move the pin, does it change what you do off the tee?


Is there any real choice on the tee other than deciding whether or not to back off from the ravine?


Does the fact that the hole has a layup area make it strategic in nature?


Isn't part of the definition of a penal hole that there is a forced carry?



(I've played the hole, I think its a mess.)


« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 01:06:23 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2015, 01:11:03 PM »
Looking at the overhead shot, its strikes me that the fairway actually widens the closer you get to the ravine.


I do agree that there is a bit of strategy involved in the layup, as the placement of the pin in one of the clover leafs could make the left or right fairways a better option.


But options that arise due to a suboptimal tee ball do not equate to a "strategic" golf hole.


Sven




"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2015, 01:16:18 PM »
Ken,
There is a certain element of hit and hope with the driver.  But I think the strategy is really in the distance of the drive.  It's a pretty easy tee ball if you want to lay back, but that makes the second shot pretty tough.  If you want to hit driver, it's a very small landing area where you must be committed to your line, if you miss it is certainly hope for a lucky lie after that. 


And maybe this isn't strategy more than deception, but I think Dye does an excellent job of getting in the pros head and causing doubt.  Maybe I'm confusing that with strategy, but regardless I think it's a great closing hole.

Josh,
 
There's hit and hope for me everytime I pull driver.
 
My discussion is purely from the Championship tees and you just proved my issue with the hole.  I sat and watched group after group play 18 on Saturday of the 2010 PGA and the vast majority hit hybrid into the green.  Is that a bad thing?  Not at the Championship level as you point out, but it's the huge carry into that green I find odd.  The biggest bombers can reach 170-180 and hit irons in.  Not many guys could get it there.  That provides an advantage I have an issue with.  The hole demands too much chance.
 
To Mike's point, the hole diagram he shows is a bit misleading regarding the angle off the tees into the fairway.  The furthest back tee is around 500 yards and provides the sharpest angle compared to the other tees.  It's just a tad offcenter.  The blue and black tee is lined up down the left side of the fairway.  The diagram makes it look as if the tee shot is a "cape" style and it is not.
 
Ken

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2015, 01:30:46 PM »
Isn't there a strategic choice -- at least on those days where the wind isn't out of the west, and for at least the longer hitters -- regarding whether to try and hit the left fairway, which has a speed slot that can leave the player with a much shorter second?   

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: For Championship Play, is the 18th at Whistling Straits...
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2015, 01:32:20 PM »
I think the new championship tees are back at like 530?  It's a monster for sure.


Anymore, I don't know how strategic a hole can be for pros, other than giving them the option to hit driver or not.  18 is one of the few that allows you to make that choice, knowing a bad drive can be a disaster.

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