[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
#18 at WS is the worst hole on the golf course (#5 is a close second).  The strategy on #18 is simple - just survive it.  It is VERY HARD but HARD does not make a hole great.
Mark

[MCirba]

Guys,

I'll weigh in more later but I'm enjoying this discussion and the differing views.   Discussion of architecture I think we used to call it here.     Also, I stay firm in my conviction that I'm really interested to see the finish in next week's tournament given the variability in scoring inherent in this hole's design, and the options, yes options from the tee and that arise once one is out of ideal position.

It reminds me of the fact that both Mackenzie and Macdonald believed the very best holes had an element of controversy about them, and nay criticism, nay greatness.

Ken,

I'm not sure what you mean about the back tees not being angled from the fairway.   From Sven's overhead it certainly appears to be? 

[Matt Kardash]

I think it's a hole that plays better as a 530 yard par 4 for the pro golfer than it does at 420 for the everyday golfer. I think it makes for a dramatic closing hole of a major championship. if I played this hole from the 420 yard tee I would have to hit a3 iron then a 6 iron or something like that.

[MCirba]

Matt,

Absolutely agreed.   I'm pretty sure it's not a great hole for us, but I think it's a great hole for Championship tournament golf.

Architectural bifurcation seems to me a natural outgrowth of the vast differences between tour players and good amateurs, a delta that seems to have doubled or tripled during my lifetime.   Should we really be surprised that course playability at that level reflects that delta?

[Mark_Fine]

The hole is hard for the pros (frankly hard for anyone).  Maybe that is why some feel it is interesting - because it is hard.  It doesn't fit with the rest of the golf course and I don't see where there is much strategy or risk/reward    The ideal tee shot is pretty much in the same spot for everyone whether you are a pro or a high handicapper - get your tee shot as close to the cross hazard without going in it .  Even if a pro had to make a birdie to finish they will all try to hit their tee shot to the same exact place (maybe by Sunday they will be aiming to be 10 yards shorter because there will be too any divots in that exact place). 

Maybe the better question is, would the hole be better for the pros if it was played from the shorter tees?  If the consensus is no, then I contend it is just a hard golf hole, nothing more.

[Tim_Weiman]

Mike,


Very good hole to discuss and debate. Played it several times and enjoyed the hole. Enjoyed it a lot. But, probably what I liked was the challenge. It felt great to par. Bogey didn't seem like a bad score and the possibility of a double always lurked.


Play from about 420. Pretty sure it was 3 wood for the reason you suggest and about a seven iron. Given the downhill nature of the approach and the trouble all around, especially short, it seemed pretty heroic to hit the green.


WS is a fun place to play golf. Very different than Blackwolf Run which I also enjoyed.

[Jason Thurman]

My wife has an idiot friend who mostly hates everything. Among the things included in this list are fast-casual restaurants that let you create your own item with a combination of their ingredients, like Chipotle or Blaze Fast-Fired Pizza or even Jimmy John's.


The reason she hates those types of places is because of her total lack of restraint. When faced with a menu that allows her to top her own food item with her chosen combination of several dozen potential toppings, she is unable to forego any of the toppings she enjoys, even if they don't fit together. As a result, she'll slap together some concoction like a pizza topped with pepperoni, mushrooms, roasted garlic, spinach, pineapple, olives, peppers, onions, barbecue chicken, buffalo chicken, feta cheese, extra spicy sauce, white cream sauce, arugula, pesto, bananas, corn, tortilla chips, and jalapeno peppers. When she then takes a bite and gets hit with a flood of clashing flavors, she blames the restaurant instead of blaming her unrestrained order.


The 18th at Whistling Straits is a lot like that to me. When I first played it I knew it was tough, and I knew it had features I liked such as an angled tee shot, a large green with substantial contours, a ravine, huge bunkers, alternate fairways, a place for shorter hitters to lay up, beautiful views, and a fair amount of elasticity with the ability to play from different tees or to different pin positions. And yet, it didn't immediately appeal to me. The more that I study it, the more I realize that it's the hypothetical pizza above - a bunch of tasty toppings that don't relate to each other.


The tee shot is really too long for the "alternate fairway" on the left to come into play, and a hypothetical risky drive to that small target isn't really rewarded with anything. The green may be big and offer plenty of pin positions, but it doesn't have much character and the strategy really doesn't change as the pin moves around. The drive is difficult, but not particularly interesting. The approach is the same. It's a good tournament golf hole for viewers, yes, because lots can go wrong. But it's certainly not strategic, nor do I think it's much fun to play or particularly interesting architecturally. Everyone knows exactly what each player needs to do when the tee goes into the ground. The only question is one of execution.

[Joe Zucker]

Jason's last paragraph hits the nail on the head to me.  The "alternate" fairway is just too far for it to be a realistic option.  Especially if the hole plays 530, there is really no strategy at all.  It still may be a good and challenging finishing hole, but not much of a strategic one for our taste around here.

I wonder if the hole would be more strategic for the pros if it played ~420 yards?  Then the carry over the bunkers to the left fairway would be possible for the longer hitters.  While I have played the hole, I can't recall if being way down there on the left would be a huge benefit.  We might just see everyone laying up to the end of the fairway because the carry is too risky.  Currently the hole is par/bogey, but if it were shorter and could entice Bubba, D Johnson, etc to carry the traps it could be a birdie/par hole.  If only Mike Davis were there to move the tee up 100 yards on Sunday...

[Jud_T]

I particularly enjoy how natural the hole looks.  The contours that appear as if Mother Nature shat them out in her sleep meld so seamlessly with the sink-hole sized hazard and the faux Irish clubhouse beyond the green that one fully expects a Leprechaun to pop out of one of the waste bunkers and present you with a coupon for a free piece of soda bread at the house.  And all for the bargain price of $385 + caddie + tip.  Almost makes you want to rush right to the first tee at the, uh, Irish.  Bedpost notching for the upwardly mobile never had it quite like this. 

[MCirba]

Jason/Joe/Jud,

All terrific posts, thanks guys.   

I would agree with Jason that the hole is hardly subtle and everything but the kitchen sink is thrown into the pot.   And Jud, I'm not sure Pete Dye was ever one for exactly blending with nature.

But, in thinking about it some more, I'd like to discuss and debate something Sven Nilsen said yesterday when he wrote;

But options that arise due to a suboptimal tee ball do not equate to a "strategic" golf hole.

Personally, that's exactly what I think is so different about the golf hole, and perhaps something architecturally noteworthy.

I think we'd all agree that from the back tees players tend to miss to the right as the left bunker minefield is death, well below fairway level.   I think we'd also agree that the angle of the tee shot from the tips makes it more likely that even decently struck shots may run through the fairway into the right rough.   As we saw, that right side presents some awkward stances and lies.

Once a golfer ends up there is where I think it gets interesting and what sets this hole apart in terms of options and strategy.   Do you still go for the green?   Bail out to the right fairway?   Play to the left fairway?   Hole location would be a big determinant, no?

In the heat of a Major tournament competition, I think all of that is pretty compelling and much different from your general garden variety finishing hole.

[Kalen Braley]

The aerial views strike me that this should be a par 5 hole for the everyday player from 480-500 yards, and a ball buster par 4 for the big boys once every few years when the tour rolls thru town at same yardage.
 
It seems like if one just plays it conservative, 3 wood, 7 iron, flip wedge, it'd be an easy 5.  Whats the problem?  Or is it just that people  are so stuck to "must make par, must make par" as a par 4 that leads them into making bad decisions?
 
(  As usual, I'll put the disclaimer on that I've never played it, so it may have several blind components that make it more difficult on the ground level)
 
Thoughts?

[MCirba]

Kalen,

Judged as a stand-alone hole you may be right that it possibly should be viewed as a par five for everyday play from further back and a killer four for tour pros playing major tournaments, ala the USGA typical US Open approach.

However, this is Pete Dye, and if the course doesn't have a 5-3-4 finish....well, I'm not sure what would happen but it wouldn't be very good and I wouldn't want to find out.   Sort of like trying to fool Mother Nature. 

[Brett_Morrissy]

...the most strategic finishing hole in golf?

I think the first line of the thread, is the part I struggle with. if it said, "...the most strategic penal finishing hole in golf?", then Mike I think you will find more in agreement with you.

For me, I think strategy or strategic design is about apparent freedom, standing on the tee, there appears to be many options for your tee shot, from length to accuracy and the reality is that there is probably one ideal line for each golfer based on their skill and competency.
- So the mental challenge on the tee is choose from the options in front of you based on your position on the leaderboard, and how you are feeling about your game. Take the difficult option, pull it off and you are rewarded, take medium option, with chance of birdie, or take safe option to 'guarantee' a 4 and the win.

For penal design, it is about control - real control, with rewards either non existent (penal hazards) or very small percentage chance to execute, and as someone said above, just doesn't make sense to try that shot.
- So the mental challenge on the tee is pretty straight forward, you need to execute - no choice - this brings fear and trepidation, with the only safety on the tee being to play short of trouble, which on this hole is everywhere.

When a golfer walks from the green of a strategic hole, having executed 2-3 shots that were part of a plan on the tee, a mental challenge to execute with skill, they can congratulate themselves on a job well done and feel a sense of accomplishment.

When a golfer walks from a the green of a penal hole - like the 18th at WS - having marked a 4 or less on their card, they will have a sense of relief, checking of underwear, and a sense of escaped the trap, still shaking and trembling.

Both make for great finishing holes in a championship or in a round with mates.

How to make this a strategic hole?- put a layer of turf over the entire water hazard and surrounding rough, so it is all fairway cut, but with signifcant undulations, this will provide many options off the tee, while still providing multiple angles of approach to the hole for the masters of the game.

[JJShanley]

To those who have played the course: does the approach play any easier from portion of the fairway that veers left, other than simply leaving you a shorter yardage if you can carry the bunkers or play a finesse draw?

[Brett_Morrissy]

Jason, your Pete Dye 'create your own meal' restuarant analogy is interesting. I think this is Pete Dye at his smorgasbord best, but there is little structure or restraint to the smorgasbord table.

True, delicious, quality AND satisfying smorgasbord (Scandinavian), provides options, and structure to your meal, paired with appropriate beverages and 'biting off as much as you think or feel is right for you', leaving said buffet satisfying and happy.

Leaving Pete Dye's "18th @ WS all you can eat restuarant ", you feel jipped, promised all these delights but once finished, you couldn't eat it all, the meal lacked balance and cohesion, feel overfull and a bit cranky...

Where is the fun in that??

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - yes, good thread. But my honest opinion: it's a golf hole and an entire golf course built by an old (and perhaps cynical) trickster secure enough in every way to freely mock the whole endeavour. He's laughing at the notion of strategic design; parodying the USGA's love of tough championship tests; utilizing random bunkering to a comically absurdist degree; chuckling at the wholesale and disneyland-like re-creation of original linksland golf; snickering at turning the tour pros' fear of thinking into utter confusion; and last but not least gloating over the fact that no one has yet noticed or called him on his grand charade. Like a great character by Shakespeare, I think nothing would please him more than if some child or young architect yelled out "But the Emperor has no clothes!".  Maybe the fact that I like Tom D is the reason why I've never yelled it out myself until now, knowing the great respect and affection that Tom has for his mentor; but goodness gracious, WS strikes me more as a small town carnival than a golf course, complete with merry go rounds and stuffed animals and sad clowns and enough cotton candy to make you sick for a week.
Peter

[Tim_Weiman]

Mike - yes, good thread. But my honest opinion: it's a golf hole and an entire golf course built by an old (and perhaps cynical) trickster secure enough in every way to freely mock the whole endeavour. He's laughing at the notion of strategic design; parodying the USGA's love of tough championship tests; utilizing random bunkering to a comically absurdist degree; chuckling at the wholesale and disneyland-like re-creation of original linksland golf; snickering at turning the tour pros' fear of thinking into utter confusion; and last but not least gloating over the fact that no one has yet noticed or called him on his grand charade. Like a great character by Shakespeare, I think nothing would please him more than if some child or young architect yelled out "But the Emperor has no clothes!".  Maybe the fact that I like Tom D is the reason why I've never yelled it out myself until now, knowing the great respect and affection that Tom has for his mentor; but goodness gracious, WS strikes me more as a small town carnival than a golf course, complete with merry go rounds and stuffed animals and sad clowns and enough cotton candy to make you sick for a week.
Peter

Peter,


I like your post. Quite an enjoyable read. But, it doesn't change my opinion that Whistling Straights was quite enjoyable each time I played it, including the challenge of 18. Admittedly, #5 I didn't really care for.

[Matt Bielawa]

To answer the OP's question, no, it's not the most strategic 18th hole in championship golf.  I'd nominate:


TOC, Pebble Beach, Inverness, and Southern Hills, with Olympic and possibly even Torrey Pines (for the second shot, not the first) as honorable mention.

[BCrosby]

Peter -


Anything I might add would only detract from the brilliance of your post above re WS.


Bob

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike - yes, good thread. But my honest opinion: it's a golf hole and an entire golf course built by an old (and perhaps cynical) trickster secure enough in every way to freely mock the whole endeavour. He's laughing at the notion of strategic design; parodying the USGA's love of tough championship tests; utilizing random bunkering to a comically absurdist degree; chuckling at the wholesale and disneyland-like re-creation of original linksland golf; snickering at turning the tour pros' fear of thinking into utter confusion; and last but not least gloating over the fact that no one has yet noticed or called him on his grand charade. Like a great character by Shakespeare, I think nothing would please him more than if some child or young architect yelled out "But the Emperor has no clothes!".  Maybe the fact that I like Tom D is the reason why I've never yelled it out myself until now, knowing the great respect and affection that Tom has for his mentor; but goodness gracious, WS strikes me more as a small town carnival than a golf course, complete with merry go rounds and stuffed animals and sad clowns and enough cotton candy to make you sick for a week.
Peter

And oddest of all it is at a resort reeking in estrogen.

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob - thank you. I very rarely criticize a course by name on here, but WS and Mr Dye are both big enough to take it, as they are elephants to my flea.
John - I'll take your word for it, and wonder what the heck that's all about.
Peter

[Joe Hancock]

Peter,

Bravo!

[John Cowden]

No. 18 is a blast for a 9 'capper, played from the white tees, of course.  The left side fairway extension is cool for a thought-provoking option, and, alternatively, the  straight-away drive to the gully requires varying thought depending on the wind.


My vote for goofiest hole at WS goes to no. 5.  Frick, I get the cape tee shot, but is there another "Z" hole you can identify with the same extreme, uninspiring shot values?

[MCirba]

Matt, 18 at Olympic and TOC are more strategic?  How so pray tell?

[Matt Bielawa]

Depending on hole location, wind, etc... there are countless options from the tee at TOC that produce different angles and options on the second.  Admittedly, I haven't been there yet, so maybe I'm wrong.  However, watching the pros in this year's Open seemed to suggest lots of different ways to play the hole, with differing levels of success.


On Olympic (granted, I called this honorable mention, so I also think it's not as good as the others), mainly club selection from the tee....like TOC, you could hit nearly any club in the bag off of the tee to create a different shot into the green.  #18 at WS is a driver for essentially everyone with a strategy of hit it as far as you can and keep it straight.  I don't see how that's requires more thought or strategy than TOC or Olympic.

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