[Don Mahaffey]

We often hear of the love for TOC. Many call it their favorite course, and/or best in the world.

In modern golf architecture it is impossible to spend a day on a construction site and not hear phrases or words like, "horizon line", "view slot", or "backdrop".
It is as if we are building a large beautiful landscape, and then finding a way to fit in the golf. Most important it seems is our courses must be visually appealing in every possible way.

Major foul if you see the group teeing off on the next tee as you hit your approach to the green.
Major foul if you build a green side bunker and don't cut the fairway a few feet to open up a slot to see the bunker.

When you combine the visual requirements of modern architecture with the mandate that our courses must be highly functional with ever increasing automation to reduce maintenance, (bunker construction methods are judged solely on the ability to reduce labor)  we end up with courses where the actual game is far secondary to many other masters.
And all of this focus on visibility and function puts a great demand on presenting perfect grass.
Our courses are judged on how pretty they are and how perfect the conditions.

Are the horizon lines correct at TOC? View slots and backdrops? We know the function is incorrect as water certainly drains into the bunkers.

Whats the deal? How can so many praise TOC yet look for something so different in the courses they build, and the courses they seek out. And minus points for just pointing out the soil. This is 2015, we can deal with less than ideal soil.

[Brent Hutto]

It would hard to business plan a new course based solely on appealing to the demographic who would travel to Scotland to play The Old Course.

[Don Mahaffey]

So your answer is it is bad business to build a course similar to what many consider the greatest in the world?
Or, TOC is only great because of the history and the Scottish environment? Thus it is simply a tourist attraction?
Not being a wise ass, trying to understand your thinking.

[Don Mahaffey]

Stealing a quote from GeoffShac's twitter feed:

"The difference between the golf courses of America and of Great Britain can best be expressed by the two words "artificial" and "natural": and that means a whole lot more than the mere presence or absence of the fabrication of man. Employing a comparison with our own best courses in America I have found that most of our courses, especially those inland, may be played correctly the same way round after round. The holes really are laid out scientifically; visibility is stressed; you can see what you have to do virtually all the time; and when once you learn how to do it, you can go right ahead, the next day, and the next day, and the day after that".BOBBY JONES

I know there is a huge difference between links golf and inland US golf. I'm not debating that. It just seems like TOC breaks so many of the modern day rules that it makes me question the validity of the rules more than finding fault with the great Old Course. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Good topic Don. There are lots to copy from TOC and there is a lot not too. I personally thought it was the worst Open championship I can ever remember, partly because of the weather, partly because it is terrible tv viewing. This time I paid more attention to the viewing, the crossing of holes (even if 7 and 11 is the only official one) most holes seem too interact as a pair. The closeness of greens and tee relationships are all the things not to do in good golf design.

The great bits are the internal contours of the greens and the fairways and the defence of the course by being out of position, those can be mimicked into new golf design.

When you get to know TOC without the stands, there are some great backdrops and drive lines, strangely 17 is not one them. It is the learning of the course that explains more detail. Most visitors never get past first play or leave it so long in between they don't recall the best lines, but love for semi-blindness anyway is very much a minority opinion and as many will say if you designed her today they take you straight to the loony bin.

[Brent Hutto]

When I encounter golfers mentioning The Old Course they consider it one of the great golf tourism destinations in the world but outside of this forum that's the only context in which "greatest" might be used. I literally have never hard a golfer make any comment indicating a wish for some feature or characteristic of The Old Course to be brought to their home course.


I think most golfers consider it a fun thing to do for a round or two at some point in their life.


Be careful in assuming that historic track record, uniqueness or fame have any relation to how golfers want to spend every Saturday and Sunday with their usual foursome.

[jeffwarne]

Adrian,
We're goingt o have to disagree on this being "the worst Open Championship you can remember"


Even in some of the very golf naive circles I travel in the event is still being talked about.
a fantastic event, fantastic venue, fantastic finish-what's not to love?


Made even better by the fact that many are familiar with the course from having been there or viewing it on TV every 5 years

[Sean_A]

Don


I would be far more inclined to question some of the modern tenents of design.  The first major foul you listed is a complete non-issue for me and I would argue that its often quite attractive to have golfers teeing off in the backdrop behind a green.  That said, TOC is given leeway by all to "break" rules because its TOC.  I spose this course, some others and a great many holes were around before there were "rules"...so in a way they all get a break.  Thank goodness for it as well.  Imagine a world of golf without pre-rules holes....it would be terribly boring.


Ciao

[BCrosby]

"It just seems like TOC breaks so many of the modern day rules that it makes me question the validity of the rules more than finding fault with the great Old Course." D. Mahaffey

Which is one more reason why we should be extremely reluctant to change TOC. Modern architects and their bosses will, advertently or not, default to "modern day rules".

Bob

[Dave McCollum]

I come from a golfing demographic where it is quite rare to find somebody who has played TOC or even a variety of different styles of golf.  After I returned from Scotland 8 years ago, I bumped into an old friend that had played TOC many years ago.  When I told him I had played TOC (and many old links), he asked “Have you ever seen such a mess?”

Shocked and momentarily puzzled by his question, I paused a couple of beats before asking questions of my own:  “Why do you ask that?  Were you too cheap to hire a caddie?”

The look on his face told all.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,
We're goingt o have to disagree on this being "the worst Open Championship you can remember"


Even in some of the very golf naive circles I travel in the event is still being talked about.
a fantastic event, fantastic venue, fantastic finish-what's not to love?


Made even better by the fact that many are familiar with the course from having been there or viewing it on TV every 5 years

Just bad luck but ....The weather was awful and play was interrupted and all the rounds/times got messed up. For St Andrews....With the TV cameras they cant get behind many of the tees because they stick out into the other hole, they cant get directly behind some of the greens because they are in the way of the next tee shot or the incoming next shot. If you go there it is the worst on the rota for viewing because you just cant get close enough to the greens and only 1 side of the fairway often then obscured by gorse. The greatness is in the playing of the course more than the viewing both from the TV angle and live. The plusses of TOC still outweigh those niggles though.

[Peter Pallotta]

Don - I've never been to the Old Course or to Wolf Point, and I'm not sure I'm using the terms in the same way that professionals do, but if critics/experts can't see that WP offers (for inland Texas) horizon lines and backgrounds and view slots that are just as appropriate/fitting as the ones TOC offers for sea-side Scotland, they must be blind. It strikes me that there are many, including many who should know better, who miss the forest for the trees.


Peter 

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

have you been to an Open at TOC? I ask as I find it hard to believe you have based on your comments. They have no control over the weather so that is a bit off the mark as a criticism. As for tees sticking into the line of the previous hole for setting up a camera behind well 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16 and 17 do not leaving just 2. You can see the all greens close up except 1 & 17 I do however agree it is difficult to follow groups down fairways and some more gorse removal would be a big bonus.

I have always found TOC a great venue and was impressed by the number of seats available and the positioning of them to allow you to view 3 or 4 holes from one point. TOC is definitively a venue where you are better choosing a spot and letting the groups pass through IMO.

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jon - Yes been to the Open at TOC. Definetly the worse on the rota for viewing IMO. Agree it is best to just sit in a stand, but you need binoculars as you are usually 50 yards away.
3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th, stick out into the previous hole they cant set up a normal camera , think just the 15th and 18th on the back nine.

[Tom_Doak]

How can so many praise TOC yet look for something so different in the courses they build,

Don:


The first part of the answer to your question is that most architects do NOT really consider The Old Course to be a great course, poor visibility being one of their major criticisms of it.  They do not speak up very loudly and say so, because they might look foolish, but most modern architects really don't like it much.


I'm in the other camp, of course; but so is Jack Nicklaus, and pretty much all of Jack's guys are focused like a laser on sight lines.  There is a bit of "do as I say, not as I do" in all of this; guys learn how to build a course from their mentors, and then can't compute that there are other perfectly valid ways to get to a great course.


My own crew talk a lot about visual scale and making bunkers big enough to fit the landscape, and while pretty much everyone agrees that their work is beautiful, I sometimes question whether it is necessary.  To some extent they are "talking their book" as the investment guys say; they are experts at building beautiful bunkers and they don't want to see that skill devalued.  Many of the Scots courses, by contrast, have beautiful bunkers when viewed from up close, which works because that's the only place you really see them from; they hunker down in the landscape off the tee, so the small pot bunkers do not look as out of scale as one might think, and then they are in perfect scale when viewed from close up.


The more modern courses are built, the more The Old Course stands out as something really unique.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon - Yes been to the Open at TOC. Definetly the worse on the rota for viewing IMO. Agree it is best to just sit in a stand, but you need binoculars as you are usually 50 yards away.
3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th, stick out into the previous hole they cant set up a normal camera , think just the 15th and 18th on the back nine.

Adrian,

having been there last week there is only the 7th is in the line of the previous hole. It is not a good course to follow groups around but then neither is Lytham where you need to be a mountain goat as is Birkdale in places. I just find the surroundings and history more than make up for the drawbacks at TOC.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Tom, yes, I have a lot of time for hunkered down bunkers such as at Hoylake.  I bet it must take a few years to remember where all the sand is and that newish members look for low lying brown areas. 


Ciao

[Ken Moum]

The more modern courses are built, the more The Old Course stands out as something really unique.  Absolutely!  Which is why many give TOC a pass on its many shortcomings.  TOC is one of the very few unique courses in the world. 

Tom, yes, I have a lot of time for hunkered down bunkers such as at Hoylake.  I bet it must take a few years to remember where all the sand is and that newish members look for low lying brown areas. 


Ciao

What? You're not looking for it to be "Right there in front of you?"

Heresy... or not.

😈

[Jeff Taylor]

Which is one more reason why we should be extremely reluctant to change TOC. Modern architects and their bosses will, advertently or not, default to "modern day rules".

Miles Davis went electric when recording "In A Silent Way" and Bitches Brew". The criticism was ruthless.
Was it not music? Was it not art? Did those architects way back when not have any rules?

[Doug Siebert]

You can consider TOC to be a great course while still finding fault with it as far as how it may or may not apply to modern architecture.  No one today is going to build a course where fairways cross, where you practically aim at a hotel on one hole and could destroy a large picture window of another hotel on the next.  Not to mention building on public land where you have to on Sunday - one of the highest earning days of the week for most courses - and allow people to free reign to walk wherever the like on it.  The idea of fairway bunkers you can't see in anathema to most today, as is the manufactured look of the Swilken Burn, or an asphalt path that is in play a few feet from a green.  And the maintenance for those gigantic greens...

None of that detracts from the far more lengthy list of great things about the course that can instruct modern architects just as it did those designing courses a century ago.  It doesn't have to be a great example of all the things modern architects are looking for to be great.

[Michael Goldstein]

This post frustrated me to the extent that I've just purchased two books on Amazon for a local developer. The modern rules are a crock. 

PS: Adrian, what is wrong with the green to tee walks at TOC??

[Jim Nugent]

Are the horizon lines correct at TOC? View slots and backdrops? We know the function is incorrect as water certainly drains into the bunkers.

Whats the deal? How can so many praise TOC yet look for something so different in the courses they build, and the courses they seek out. And minus points for just pointing out the soil. This is 2015, we can deal with less than ideal soil.

How do the world's other top courses measure up to these criteria?  Courses like Pine Valley, CPC, Shinnie, NGLA, Merion, Royal Melbourne, Sand Hills, etc. 

[Rich Goodale]

Whilst "WORKING!!!" today, I've been watching the UK Women's Open on the telly.  The camera work and the commentary is MILES!!! better than the drivel which the BBC fed us pablum-style last week.

The weather helped, but also the lack of Yahoos (aka "Patrons").   ~5000 vs 45000 for a Men's oPEN.

Josie and I will be there tomorrow.

From what I have seen on the telly, Turnberry confirms my ancient thoughts that it is one of the finest golf courses in the world.

rICH

[Don Mahaffey]

Many interesting comments.
Ranging from TOC is just a nostalgia driven course that isn't really that good, to some don't really care for the course but say it is good because they know they are supposed to say it is good, to those who think the course is very good.
I suppose the real question as always is the criteria we use to say it is good or great course. I think we sometimes try and judge a course on the architectural merits based on commonly accepted architectural norms, like visibility, rather than the actual experience of playing the golf course.
What seems a bit ironic to me is the course is full of long views, but the views aren't shaped by man to direct our eye, so the educated may say the course lacks visibility. Funny to me because they may praise the visibility of another course that lacks long views from all parts of the course but has many created or positioned "big"views where the handiwork of man is highlighted.
Almost feels like if I can't tell you where to look, then you might look the wrong way, thus the architecture lacks. As if none of us are willing to work for our meal.
I don't see it that way, and I think it is one reason courses like TOC grow on people over time as they discover new things with repeated play. The really good courses are like that I think.

I like courses with subtle, ground hugging features. Features as Tom Doak discusses that are in scale, even in a big landscape, because they are not propped up against huge backdrops, but are smaller and not competing with large open views; where a confident designer is willing to let the golfer's eyes miss them a time or two.



 

[Brent Hutto]

I've not visited the Old Course myself and while I'd definitely like to do so at some point, it has never seemed worth the other opportunities it would mean passing up.

The reason for lukewarm desire to visit is that I take at face value the conventional wisdom saying it is best appreciated by getting to know it through repeated play. I just can't imagine that happening for me at TOC.


During the time of year I'd care to be in Scotland (roughly May through October) just how much time and expense would be necessary to fully appreciate its greatness? If we're talking 6, 8, 10 rounds perhaps then either that means play a few times per visit over several visits or else staying there long enough to accumulate that much play in one stretch.


I guess I just can't get past the idea of a crowded, expensive course where people wait in line for hours before sunup in hopes of getting a round and the belief that I really ought to find a way to play a half a dozen times. Is that practical in a week? Two weeks? A month?


So anyway, if and when I get there and play The Old Course a couple of times I don't expect to be put off by lack of "view slots" or "backgrounds". But I do expect to be just another tourist trudging around hitting shots here and there at the instruction of a caddie and hoping for the best. I won't be surprised if an experience like that turns out to be less great than the course itself.


It's always seemed like a fundamental paradox to me that the ultimate "Bucket List" course that so many people want to play once in their life is generally a totally mystifying and confusing experience for most of them during their "Bucket" round. Seems like crowded resort courses are best served by being "right there in front of you" while subtle and hard to navigate ones are best for "members" courses to be playing hundreds of times in a lifetime.

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