[Adam Clayman]

 

   Please tell me an all fescue public course in Michigan that does 20,000 rounds and can handle cart traffic?

Was this rhetorical?

[BCowan]

Adam,

     Ur going to tell me u have never played on a firm bent fairway/green surface? 

[Andrew Buck]

  I haven't played Diamond Springs and Thee Mines yet....  Anxious to broaden my horizons.  I have seen all bent maintained very well in smaller markets in Michigan (we can talk off board) with a very small budget. 

 

I play a course with all bent in a smaller market that has a maintenance budget under $300k and is in very good shape with generally firm playing conditions (unless mother nature intervenes with too much rain.)

[Jeff Bergeron]

I play at two courses in the Detroit area. One chose Pure Distinction bent in 2012. It survived the brutal winter of 2013-14 unscathed. The other lost all their greens in that winter and regrassed to Pure Distinction in August, 2014.
Member satisfaction at both courses is 100%. In fact, two weeks ago we had a two time US Open champ in town for a visit and he commented the greens were the best he has seen outside of Augusta National.
Pure Distinction has a foot long root system and requires substantially less water. As poa comes in you shut off the water and the bent thrives and the poa dies. I played today in low 90s heat and the greens thrived No watering mid day.
Several other Detroit area courses are going to PD this fall. Inverness also went to it a year ago.
The new bent grasses are hearty, resilient and can be to cut to a stimp of 14 with no risk. Even in 90-100 degree weather.

Jeff,

interesting read and I believe that deep rooting is one of the key factors. 12" is very good for bent on the greens and it would be hoped that with deeper rootzones the depth might be more i.e. 24" leading to 18" to 24" root depth. I am not sure I buy the faster speeds making the game harder and indeed would argue faster greens are much easier to putt on and hole out if you can adjust to the speed. It is one of the biggest cons in the modern game yet most are too gullible not to see it's deception. Do you know what is the putting surface like with Pure Distinction if it stimps at say 10?

Jon

Jon:
The putting surfaces are equally good at 10. They are usually at 10.5 for daily play and are fine. They have been at 13 for a few select tournaments but that's pushing the limit of fun,pace of play. etc.
Jeff

[BCowan]

Ben,

I don't disslike bentgrass, it just requires a level of maintenance that most supers don't have the luxury of performing.

I have seen bluegrass/ fescue blends utilized to create a great playing surface, but it lacks the definition between fairway and rough that the modern day golfer uses as a barometer of eliteness.

Likewise, I have seen fescues as the primary fairway grass to great acclaims, but it is hindered by traffic issues during the first few years of a courses life.

Bentgrass is hardy. If it has enough sun, it will out-compete everything in the cooler climates. But it makes thatch.....unless these new varieties are that much different.

Do you know of bentgrass fairways and tees somewhere that aren't thatchy? I'd love to learn more of how the super manages them. Make sure we are talking about turf that has been in place for at least 5 years.....

Joe,

    The brush attachments on the front of mowers do a great job of getting rid of thatch. 

[Joe Hancock]

Ben,

Not really. Brushes do a good job of grooming the grass  blades, but do nothing for removing thatch. Hollow-tine aerification, verti-cutting and topdressing are the only effective tools to get rid of thatch. Once thatch is established it is usually tough to get back to a desired level due to golfers' intolerance of frequent disruption.

I'll call you tomorrow.

[Terry Lavin]

Ben,

I don't disslike bentgrass, it just requires a level of maintenance that most supers don't have the luxury of performing.

I have seen bluegrass/ fescue blends utilized to create a great playing surface, but it lacks the definition between fairway and rough that the modern day golfer uses as a barometer of eliteness.

Likewise, I have seen fescues as the primary fairway grass to great acclaims, but it is hindered by traffic issues during the first few years of a courses life.

Bentgrass is hardy. If it has enough sun, it will out-compete everything in the cooler climates. But it makes thatch.....unless these new varieties are that much different.

Do you know of bentgrass fairways and tees somewhere that aren't thatchy? I'd love to learn more of how the super manages them. Make sure we are talking about turf that has been in place for at least 5 years.....

Joe,

    The brush attachments on the front of mowers do a great job of getting rid of thatch.

One for the archives.

[Greg Chambers]

With the newer strands requiring 20-30% less water and the blades growing more vertical, when will GCAers include it in their 3 by 5 note cards?

I'm still waiting for your source on your claim of 20-30% less water. Thx

[BCowan]

With the newer strands requiring 20-30% less water and the blades growing more vertical, when will GCAers include it in their 3 by 5 note cards?

I'm still waiting for your source on your claim of 20-30% less water. Thx

A close friend who is a keeper and has the new strands.  Ur welcome

[Adam Clayman]

Ben, Your question was about fescue fairways.

1st off, fescue can't handle cart traffic. So, a course that does 20,000 rnds/yr, where 85-95% are cart ridden, is probably really hard to find.

The tackiness of bent grass, precludes it from playing truly firm and fast, day in day out, in my experience. Especially around the greens.

[Steve Okula]

I play at two courses in the Detroit area. One chose Pure Distinction bent in 2012. It survived the brutal winter of 2013-14 unscathed. The other lost all their greens in that winter and regrassed to Pure Distinction in August, 2014.
Member satisfaction at both courses is 100%. In fact, two weeks ago we had a two time US Open champ in town for a visit and he commented the greens were the best he has seen outside of Augusta National.
Pure Distinction has a foot long root system and requires substantially less water. As poa comes in you shut off the water and the bent thrives and the poa dies. I played today in low 90s heat and the greens thrived No watering mid day.
Several other Detroit area courses are going to PD this fall. Inverness also went to it a year ago.
The new bent grasses are hearty, resilient and can be to cut to a stimp of 14 with no risk. Even in 90-100 degree weather.

PD sounds awesome. Who was the two time champ, and have you seen the foot-long roots and the 14' speeds yourself?

[Jon Wiggett]

Ben, Your question was about fescue fairways.

1st off, fescue can't handle cart traffic. So, a course that does 20,000 rnds/yr, where 85-95% are cart ridden, is probably really hard to find.

The tackiness of bent grass, precludes it from playing truly firm and fast, day in day out, in my experience. Especially around the greens.

Adam,

if the ground conditions are right, course is designed for it and the traffic management is correct then with the appropriate management programme it should be possible however the latter is very rarely achieved so all of the former is academic.

Steve O,

I think that PD seems like a good thing is something we can both agree on

Jon

[Steve Okula]

In what situation and on what greens would 14' speeds be necessary or desirable?

[Jon Wiggett]

In what situation and on what greens would 14' speeds be necessary or desirable?

Steve,

I would suggest that faster greens make the game substantially easier for the better player as greens need to be flatter and the slower rolling speed of the ball makes the holes bigger.

I can see no reason for fast greens. Greens stimping at 9-10 would be much more challenging for the top players and have benefits all round.

Jon

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Are we talking about for the fairway or the green?  For the green, who doesn't love bent?  Any kind of a decent subsurface and a good cultural regime will provide great bent greens that can be as firm as desired.  As for the fairway, there are two types of bent fairways.  Those that are on a very sandy site and play brilliantly, and those on a clay site that play poorly.  And it is not a matter of taking a green and soft bent fairway on clay and turning off the water.  That will yield a bent fairway on clay that is dead and soft.  To take a clay site bent fairway and keep it truly firm would require a herculean cultivation effort (thatch management and topdressing) that is well outside the budgetary constraints of most courses.  I would say that a consistently firm bent fairway surface on clay would require about six inches to a foot of sand in the root zone.  Try calculating that cost.  As for X or Y bent using less water, that's great on the green, but for the fairway those water savings will be short lived as the new bent will soon start competing (and losing) to poa.  Of the clay site courses I have seen/played/worked on, I would say that bluegrass fairways play firmer, and respond very nicely to periods of reduced irrigation.  But as others have stated, Joe Golfer likes to see that bent sheen in the fairway contrasting with the bluegrass rough, regardless of it playing like spongecake. 

[Jeff Bergeron]

I play at two courses in the Detroit area. One chose Pure Distinction bent in 2012. It survived the brutal winter of 2013-14 unscathed. The other lost all their greens in that winter and regrassed to Pure Distinction in August, 2014.
Member satisfaction at both courses is 100%. In fact, two weeks ago we had a two time US Open champ in town for a visit and he commented the greens were the best he has seen outside of Augusta National.
Pure Distinction has a foot long root system and requires substantially less water. As poa comes in you shut off the water and the bent thrives and the poa dies. I played today in low 90s heat and the greens thrived No watering mid day.
Several other Detroit area courses are going to PD this fall. Inverness also went to it a year ago.
The new bent grasses are hearty, resilient and can be to cut to a stimp of 14 with no risk. Even in 90-100 degree weather.

PD sounds awesome. Who was the two time champ, and have you seen the foot-long roots and the 14' speeds yourself?






Well, I'm not a super so I'm quoting our super on the root structure. As for speed he has had them at 13 for several tournaments. I'm not really a fan of that speed as it limits available hole locations and slows play but it's achievable.
 Google will probably help you find the two time US Open champ, now a senior.

[BCowan]

Tom,

   With clay soils one can put extra drainage in during construction and do deep core aeration, can they not?  Sweetens Cove is on heavy clay soil and they sand capped the course, plays very firm.  They didn't build a huge clubhouse, they put the money into the Golf Construction aspect and the course is VERY affordable.  What conditions does poa thrive in, SHADE.  Tree management is very important, is it not?  007 strand is used in fairways and on some courses greens.  Are you telling me Oakmont doesn't play firm?  Were the bluegrass fairways private or public courses?  Would you consider that better players get more flier lies on bluegrass fairways?  It comes down to, does the membership or general public want soft conditions and lush or firm. they want lush for the most part IMO.  It isn't Bent Grasses fault, it's market driven.  If the newer strains of bent require less applications, isn't that going to decrease thatch build up?  Many organic fertilizers help with thatch reduction too. 

[Steve Okula]

Tom,

   With clay soils one can put extra drainage in during construction and do deep core aeration, can they not?  Sweetens Cove is on heavy clay soil and they sand capped the course, plays very firm.  They didn't build a huge clubhouse, they put the money into the Golf Construction aspect and the course is VERY affordable.  What conditions does poa thrive in, SHADE.  Tree management is very important, is it not?  007 strand is used in fairways and on some courses greens.  Are you telling me Oakmont doesn't play firm?  Were the bluegrass fairways private or public courses?  Would you consider that better players get more flier lies on bluegrass fairways?  It comes down to, does the membership or general public want soft conditions and lush or firm. they want lush for the most part IMO.  It isn't Bent Grasses fault, it's market driven.  If the newer strains of bent require less applications, isn't that going to decrease thatch build up?  Many organic fertilizers help with thatch reduction too.

Sand capping an entire golf course is a hugely expensive proposition. A 6' layer of sand over 30 acres of playing surfaces (conservatively, without considering roughs) would mean 24,000 cubic yards, if my calculations are correct. It would be something like a thousand tractor-trailer loads of sand, hauled in, distributed across the site and spread. This would no doubt result in an improved playing surface but I don't see how it would make it more affordable.

Poa annua will thrive in full sun and struggle in shade. Whether you're managing Poa or bent the fewer trees the better. 

Organic fertilizers will not reduce thatch compared to synthetics. Quantity of applications is what matters in that regard.

[BCowan]

Tom,

   With clay soils one can put extra drainage in during construction and do deep core aeration, can they not?  Sweetens Cove is on heavy clay soil and they sand capped the course, plays very firm.  They didn't build a huge clubhouse, they put the money into the Golf Construction aspect and the course is VERY affordable.  What conditions does poa thrive in, SHADE.  Tree management is very important, is it not?  007 strand is used in fairways and on some courses greens.  Are you telling me Oakmont doesn't play firm?  Were the bluegrass fairways private or public courses?  Would you consider that better players get more flier lies on bluegrass fairways?  It comes down to, does the membership or general public want soft conditions and lush or firm. they want lush for the most part IMO.  It isn't Bent Grasses fault, it's market driven.  If the newer strains of bent require less applications, isn't that going to decrease thatch build up?  Many organic fertilizers help with thatch reduction too.

Sand capping an entire golf course is a hugely expensive proposition. A 6' layer of sand over 30 acres of playing surfaces (conservatively, without considering roughs) would mean 24,000 cubic yards, if my calculations are correct. It would be something like a thousand tractor-trailer loads of sand, hauled in, distributed across the site and spread. This would no doubt result in an improved playing surface but I don't see how it would make it more affordable.

Poa annua will thrive in full sun and struggle in shade. Whether you're managing Poa or bent the fewer trees the better. 

Organic fertilizers will not reduce thatch compared to synthetics. Quantity of applications is what matters in that regard.

Steve,

   New Course Construction should be a one time deal.  Meaning its a cost to build a course (initial cost).  Maybe for instance the new course built on clay is closer to a large population resulting in more annual rounds.  The reason why golf isn't affordable has nothing to do with golf course maint. for the most part.  Location of the course, payroll taxes, overpaid staff ect, expectations of  members or public. 

Poa annua will thrive in full sun and struggle in shade- I disagree with that statement.  Add some heat into that equation and see what you get.  I said earlier limiting applications will reduce thatch imo. 

[Greg Chambers]

With the newer strands requiring 20-30% less water and the blades growing more vertical, when will GCAers include it in their 3 by 5 note cards?

I'm still waiting for your source on your claim of 20-30% less water. Thx

A close friend who is a keeper and has the new strands.  Ur welcome

So your claim that the new bentgrasses require a quarter to almost a third less water than the old bentgrasses is based on a sample size of one?  And what was your superintendent friend growing before, to realize these dramatic results?  How long has your superintendent friend been managing these new bentgrasses? 

[BCowan]

With the newer strands requiring 20-30% less water and the blades growing more vertical, when will GCAers include it in their 3 by 5 note cards?

I'm still waiting for your source on your claim of 20-30% less water. Thx

A close friend who is a keeper and has the new strands.  Ur welcome

So your claim that the new bentgrasses require a quarter to almost a third less water than the old bentgrasses is based on a sample size of one?  And what was your superintendent friend growing before, to realize these dramatic results?  How long has your superintendent friend been managing these new bentgrasses?

3 years managing the new grasses.  I'm sure he has seen a few years of studies on the grass selections he went with.  You think a keeper just picks grass willy nilly?  The sample size is larger, I just stated what you wanted me too, did I not.  You can be a negative one if you like.  Cutting water by 25%-33% is pretty impressive, don't you think Greg? 

[Steve Okula]

Poa annua will thrive in full sun and struggle in shade- I disagree with that statement.  Add some heat into that equation and see what you get.  I said earlier limiting applications will reduce thatch imo.

Ben,

I have been managing poa greens at my present course for the past 14 years. Some are in full sun, some in partial shade, and some in mostly shade. Year in and year out, the sunny greens are the easiest to maintain and the shady ones are the most difficult.

I'm not making this up, it's true.

[BHoover]

So if Pure Distinction can handle heat and humidity and still play firm and fast, is there any reason we won't see more courses in the Northeast and Midwest going this route (assuming those courses want bent grass as opposed to fescue or a bent-poa mix)? Is the only reason courses would not go this route be because of the cost of re-grassing?

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Don't forget about the seasonal aspects of poa infestation.  Poa outcompetes (crushes) every type of grass in spring.  It isn't even a contest.  Then bent fights back in dryer and warmer conditions, but never all the way back.  So season after season you lose bent as a % of the fairway, and thus lose a % of your water savings from the selected bent.  That being said, you have to pick SOMETHING to be in the fairway polystand, so if you get 20%-30% h2o savings for a few years that's awesome.

Also Ben, you brought up Oakmont in your rebuttal of my first post.  Oakmont probably has the budget to topdress their entire fairway acreage WEEKLY.  I was talking about most courses.  Oakmont is not most courses.

[BCowan]

Don't forget about the seasonal aspects of poa infestation.  Poa outcompetes (crushes) every type of grass in spring.  It isn't even a contest.  Then bent fights back in dryer and warmer conditions, but never all the way back.  So season after season you lose bent as a % of the fairway, and thus lose a % of your water savings from the selected bent.  That being said, you have to pick SOMETHING to be in the fairway polystand, so if you get 20%-30% h2o savings for a few years that's awesome.

Also Ben, you brought up Oakmont in your rebuttal of my first post.  Oakmont probably has the budget to topdress their entire fairway acreage WEEKLY.  I was talking about most courses.  Oakmont is not most courses.

Tom,

   If your newer strand of Bent grass receives full sun and it has deeper roots it has a much greater chance of keeping poa out in the spring.  We will see in time how PD and other newer variates endure.  I have a very good hunch that they will endure.  The club I grew up gassed its greens 25 years ago.  I've witnessed another course gas it's greens twice, so I know the issues.  One of the biggest of them is tree removal. 

   Forget oakmont, I'll take Legacy golf course in Southern Michigan.  All heavy clay.  It's a public golf course, very few trees.  Plays very firm and fast. Topdressing by the way is much better idea than redecorating the clubhouse for the Umpteen time.

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