Sunningdale... British Senior Open

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Watching some of the British Senior Open reminds how much I'd really, really like to play this and some of the other London heathland courses.  With the dried-out, firm-and-fast conditions, the course looks fantastic.  It was interesting to hear both Andy North and Curtis Strange, the latter who was seeing Sunningdale for the first time, gush about it.  Couple questions:

1.  The course in general, on TV, seems quite wide-open, but there were some spots where it looked like tree removal would be even more beneficial.  Have trees encroached into the fairway enough to alter some playing angles?  I think it was hole #12... short par 4, dog-leg right where trees seemed to get in the way if the player went too far right. 

2. Again, from TV, it was amazing to see a general resemblance between Sunningdale and Pine Valley.  Know Colt had a hand in the latter, which came first in his resume? 

3. there was a short little interview segment where some of the players referred to Sunningdale as "Parkland" in relation to playing links golf.  Knowing it's actually "Heathland", is Heathland almost a hybrid of Parkland and Links?

[Jim Hoak]

1)  I think you're talking about #11--short par-4  with the green protected by trees on the right.  Without the trees, it might be too unprotected.  The trees around the green are pretty integral to the hole.
By the way #12 is a difficult par-4, that I think is one of the best holes in the UK--certainly the best of the 36 at Sunningdale.

2)  Sunningdale Old was designed by Willie Park.  Colt was the Secretary of the Club.  He did a lot of work on the Park course (including relocating the green on #12, which improved that hole).  While he was Secretary he did a lot of work with Crump on Pine Valley.  You are right that there are a lot of similarities.  Colt did the Sunningdale New course himself, which is nearly as good as the Old Course.

3)  Sunningdale is referred to by most as a heathland course.  It is not parkland like our US courses.

You are right that both Sunningdale Old and New are well worth playing.  I don't know a better 36-hole set-up in the world.

[David_Tepper]

Ran's review of Sunningdale Old:

http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/sunningdale-golf-club-old-course/

[Alan Ritchie]

I would agree that on the 11th it's the trees that make the hole so good ( a rare achievement it would seem!) so tempting to go over them and go for the green but I think would often lead to disaster. overall I don't think the trees encroach too much at all

[Paul Gray]

Wayne,


Just to really pick up on your question as to what heathland really is, as a starting point, your definition of somewhere between links and parkland is actually pretty good.


Essentially, when the wealthy British aristocracy used to holiday by the sea in Britain they would play golf. Inevitably, back in those days, the game they were playing was links golf. With their new found love for the game, attempts were made to recreate those courses inland. Early attempts were not good as all too often the sites used were clay based and the ball simply wouldn't roll. After a while though a few bright sparks realised that the open public heathlands around London, much of which were at least in part on sandy sites, might just make for the nearest approximation available to the game they played at the seaside. Some of the heaths needed a lot of tree removal (Swinley Forest comes to mind), others actually added trees over the years (fortunately many are now taking some of those trees down to get back to more open, firmer conditions). Heathland golf was born.


Hope this is of some little help.

[Ryan Coles]

Sunningdale is indeed heathland and remains the finest of its kind in England.

The greens relative to the brown fairways seemed unusually green this week. Prior to the rain that is.

[Mike_Clayton]

You guys don't think 11 would be more dangerous with the trees gone? No one goes at the green now as far as I can tell (I was there on Thursday) but more would if not for the trees.
It mightn't be so brown tomorrow after all the rain yesterday  - it was a one of those truly soaking English days.

[David_Tepper]

The dogs of Sunningdale!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u_SfJCy0ew

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

You guys don't think 11 would be more dangerous with the trees gone? No one goes at the green now as far as I can tell (I was there on Thursday) but more would if not for the trees.
It mightn't be so brown tomorrow after all the rain yesterday  - it was a one of those truly soaking English days.

Thanks everyone for the insights (and corrections).

Mike, this is my take on #11 as well... for a short hole it doesn't seem to have much risk-reward built in.  Much like  #13 at Riviera, with the corridor of trees up the left, there really only is one play... don't get blocked out by the trees.  In both of those instances, it seems removing those trees would to open up an option, for those daring enough to try, of taking on the increased trouble that lurks behind those trees (i.e. the barranca at Riviera) to get a better a angle into the green or to drive the green itself as one could at Sunningdale.  I see the same thing at Olympic Lake's #14... just don't get blocked out by the trees (especially the Eucalyptus) on the left side.  However, removing or thinning back those trees would tempt players (I know I would be tempted) to go down the left side for a better shot into the green, which then would most certainly bring the lateral hazard and potentially OB into play.

[Paul Gray]

Have the trees down the left on #7 encroached over the years?

[BHoover]

I finally am getting around to watching the first round broadcast because I so want to see Sunningdale. I think the Old and New are probably two of the courses on my bucket list. Love the rugged heathland look of Sunningdale.

Sunningdale seems to share quite a lot in common with Royal Melbourne. Maybe it's just that they look similar. But they sure seem to share some common characteristics.

Interestingly, I noticed from the aerial there are two different mowing patterns in the fairways. Some are half-and-half and others are checkered. Does each course have its own fairway mowing pattern?

[Sean_A]

Wayne

Perhaps I have it wrong, but isn't it the case that successfully taking on the trees down the right of #11 opens up a better angle?  The further left (and safe) the worse the angle.


Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

I'm even more disappointed now to have never played Sunningdale.  Twenty years ago I asked yo play during a business trip and no times were available.   What a collection of golf holes!   The fourth might be the prettiest par 3 I've ever seen.  I loved the clip about dogs at Sunningdale, definitely my kind of place. 

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Wayne

Perhaps I have it wrong, but isn't it the case that successfully taking on the trees down the right of #11 opens up a better angle?  The further left (and safe) the worse the angle.


Ciao

Yes, I agree to a point.  I think, from what I read in Mike Clayton's statement is that one could actually go for the green on this hole if those trees weren't in play?   Then the penalty for missing right at that point might be even more severe.  And, watching the play during the Sr. Open, it seemed that there was no way/reason to go for the green and that it really didn't reward taking on those trees, because almost all of the players had a wedge of some sort coming in from the left which really posed very little risk. 

If the trees always been there, then I'm assuming they would be part of the strategy of the course, but it's my understanding that they were not original to the design and have grown in over the years.  Again, I've never played the course... never seen it in person... so I could very well be wrong!!

[Sean_A]

Wayne


It may not make much difference for guys like Clayton, but I think for the likes of me, the left side isn't great if the hole is in the back half of the green. 


Ciao

[David_Elvins]

3. there was a short little interview segment where some of the players referred to Sunningdale as "Parkland" in relation to playing links golf.

FWIW,  (not much) I felt that the Old Course at Sunningdale was pretty close to Parkland in style and reminiscent of NE American courses.  the New course had more of a Heathland feel. 


An amazing place. 

[Tom Birkert]

With regards to the trees on 11, I think they are useful, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, they encroach more than you think. It actually makes the layup a trickier shot, because you need to be far enough left to not have them impacting the pitch (whilst not going into the bunkers, left / right / short and ideally not staying on the downslope). It becomes a tricky layup, which I don't think is a bad thing on a short par 4.

You can hit driver, and you can hit it over the trees if you want to take on the green- they also challenge the drive at the same time, because if you get caught up in them you end up in the ditch or stymied, and if you go long and left you have a very, very delicate shot over the bunker to the smallest green on the course.

The trees help dictate strategy on the hole and without them I think it would be a far simpler challenge.

The sensible play is a hybrid to leave a relatively full wedge. Half wedges off a downslope to an elevated green is not a shot that I am particularly comfortable with. However, despite knowing that, I normally hit driver, as I am not really long enough to leave myself the tricky pitch over the greenside bunker if I go left, and it means I can play a bump and run onto the green.