[Don Jordan]

Without descending into a Tiger thread it was interesting to see him try the old strategy of laying up short of the bunkers. A number of times the telecast showed a graphic of him being 70-80 yards behind Day off the tee. DJ twice took on a 300yd carry into a slight head wind on the front nine and executed perfectly flying all the 'strategy'.

Watching Tiger I do question whether traditional strategic play can win in this era. All the top players go pretty much flat out and rarely don't take the aggressive option, it only takes one guy that week to pull it off to leave the field behind. 

[archie_struthers]

 




I am reaching deep into a muddled memory , but clearly remember Jack Nicklaus talking about playing some practice rounds with Tom Weiskopf prior to playing the Open .  Nicklaus talked of being in an unusual position where he was in awe of  the distances Weiskopf was hitting it , making the course seem quite tame. Haven't been able to find anything on line recounting this , but clearly remember it. Perhaps in one of Jacks books I read as a young golf wanna be .

Johnson reminds me of Weiskopf with his prodigious talent . When he was hitting it pure it was quite a sight. Of course Jack found a way to compete. 

[Andrew Simpson]

"The shorter club to fly a ridge theory is only really relevant with many players playing target golf on a links course. To a true links player with ability, laying up to allow a shot to come in with less spin and run up (specially in wind) is a skill that can defeat length. That said it seems to be a lost art these days, where someone putting from a yard off the green is considered a great links player!"

Andrew S. -

The reality sure seems to be that the world class players these days are so good with their wedge play that, 9 times out of 10, they would rather loft the ball to hole than play the old bump & run. Unless the greens are rock hard and/or the wind is howling, "target golf" is very much the preferred method. For these guys the bump & run is a quaint relic from golf days gone by.
DT
 

(Edited to sort the text failure in the second sentence)
I think we are saying the same thing David? Modern course setup seems to be to keep greens a bit softer too so helping the one directional aerial approach. This year isn't helping with the whole of Scotland being so damp, here in Wick rather than the course looking like straw it's looking like Augusta!

[Tim Fenchel]

The reality sure seems to be that the world class players these days are so good with their wedge play that, 9 times out of 10, they would rather loft the ball to hole than play the old bump & run. Unless the greens are rock hard and/or the wind is howling, "target golf" is very much the preferred method. For these guys the bump & run is a quaint relic from golf days gone by.
DT
 

I agree with this...which is why this afternoon at The Open might be interesting.  Its supposed to blow really good. Might the players have to go to the ground?


My question for those that know the course and those familiar with the links game...I know the course drains quickly...but [/size]will the rains of this morning have softened conditions just enough to make the ground game slower and less effective?

[Adam Clayman]

Tim, The rains will make the ground game less effective than the aerial assault approach, until the wind dries it out.

One has to be in "ground game shape" to have enough confidence to try those types of shots. Few pros are dialed in to their bump and run game to the extant that they would risk using it. Which then begs the question... Is the complete test being taken? Or, are these guys just the best at throwing darts and putting fast greens? 

[Bill_McBride]

The reality sure seems to be that the world class players these days are so good with their wedge play that, 9 times out of 10, they would rather loft the ball to hole than play the old bump & run. Unless the greens are rock hard and/or the wind is howling, "target golf" is very much the preferred method. For these guys the bump & run is a quaint relic from golf days gone by.
DT
 

I agree with this...which is why this afternoon at The Open might be interesting.  Its supposed to blow really good. Might the players have to go to the ground?


My question for those that know the course and those familiar with the links game...I know the course drains quickly...but will the rains of this morning have softened conditions just enough to make the ground game slower and less effective?

The course is built on all sand and drains rapidly, ground game shots should be playable.   These modern players still seem to grab the wedge over the putter. 

[Brent Hutto]

Perhaps It is a complete test and the correct answer happens not to be hitting runup shots with 7-irons. Phil Mickelson is good enough with a wedge that it's hard to invent and examination whose best answer isn't a wedge shot.

[Tim Fenchel]

Brent, I think you are right.  As much fun and skill as the ground game is...especially to watch someone very keen on it...today's pro's are so dialed in with wedges that they simply do not need to do it.  Most of these guys wedge shots within 100 yards have such a boring ball flight anyway that most wind conditions will be negated.

[David_Tepper]

Brent & Tim -

I believe it was Jack Nicklaus who said "there are no bad bounces in the air."

DT

[Tom_Doak]

Brent & Tim -

I believe it was Jack Nicklaus who said "there are no bad bounces in the air."

DT

Pete Dye called me one day after watching Jack play an exhibition at Old Marsh.  As Pete explained, Old Marsh has a lot of greens with open fronts, and at one point he asked Jack if he ever thought about playing a low shot short of the green and bouncing it on.


Jack's response was "Why would I want to do that?"  Pete just wanted me to know.


You have to have a really severe contour pretty close to the hole location in order to make a running shot make sense.  The player has to be afraid of hitting a downslope with his aerial shot and bouncing away from the hole, when he could just run it up and over like the contour wasn't there.

[Carl Nichols]

The course and logistics are VERY spectator friendly.
My wife, who's 5'2 said she's never seen so much golf at a tournament (she's been to multiple Masters and few US Opens)

I'm not there, but on yesterday's broadcast it looked like there were very few spectators.   

[Brent Hutto]

I'd imagine if you could design a "test" sufficient to make Phil Mickelson or even Jack Nicklaus bump and run a 7-iron from 80 yards out it would either


1) Be so severe that a double-digit handicapper couldn't get it in the hole from there in less than 5 or 6 shots.


2) Be tricked up in some way that doesn't really look or seem like a normal golf course feature.

[David_Tepper]

Jack's response was "Why would I want to do that?"

And Nicklaus was never known to be an especially good wedge player.

P.S. Anybody see the wedge Thongchai Jaidee hit into #18 today? That is why the pros don't bother with the bump & run.

[Andrew Simpson]

Edited my last post as the text went missing for some reason.
I'm not advocating tricked up conditions and contours where playing a 7 iron from 80 yards which hasn't been relevant for many a year even to club golfers.
I'm simply saying with firmer links greens it wouldn't be quite like throwing all the way as they are used to and doing this week.
I remember 99 at the return to Carnoustie watching players fly it onto greens then scratch their heads when the ball ran 30-40 yards past the hole and through the green.

[Tom_Doak]

Edited my last post as the text went missing for some reason.
I'm not advocating tricked up conditions and contours where playing a 7 iron from 80 yards which hasn't been relevant for many a year even to club golfers.
I'm simply saying with firmer links greens it wouldn't be quite like throwing all the way as they are used to and doing this week.
I remember 99 at the return to Carnoustie watching players fly it onto greens then scratch their heads when the ball ran 30-40 yards past the hole and through the green.

Andrew:


That still happens on the holes that play downwind, unless the ground is just saturated.  I'm betting by tomorrow you'll see balls go shooting through greens.

[Tim Fenchel]

That still happens on the holes that play downwind, unless the ground is just saturated.  I'm betting by tomorrow you'll see balls go shooting through greens.

Good call.  Its already happening.  Spieth and Matsuyama on the 7th.

[Andrew Simpson]

Andrew:


That still happens on the holes that play downwind, unless the ground is just saturated.  I'm betting by tomorrow you'll see balls go shooting through greens.

Yes Tom, I've seen them play that all day on 7 but the greens are still very "soft" (relative to normal) and will not be close to normal for this time of year over the weekend. But it's the same for everyone and i'll still enjoy watching it.

[jeffwarne]

Andrew:


That still happens on the holes that play downwind, unless the ground is just saturated.  I'm betting by tomorrow you'll see balls go shooting through greens.

Yes Tom, I've seen them play that all day on 7 but the greens are still very "soft" (relative to normal) and will not be close to normal for this time of year over the weekend. But it's the same for everyone and i'll still enjoy watching it.

There was a LOT of torrential rain this am.
Severe flash flooding here in Angus unlike anyone can remember.
I got to drive a half mile in reverse on a single track road up near Glen Doll today after water rose so deep in the road I dared not cross it.(though a few intrepid others did)

[Sean_A]

A lot of gnashing of teeth over the pros and how they play...its a waste of time.  Forget what the pros do or if you don't like it, don't watch.  I wish we could once and for all frame discussions where it matters...joe bloggs. Using the pros as an example of anything except what pros do is a bit dopey.


Ciao

[Andrew Simpson]

A lot of gnashing of teeth over the pros and how they play...its a waste of time.  Forget what the pros do or if you don't like it, don't watch.  I wish we could once and for all frame discussions where it matters...joe bloggs. Using the pros as an example of anything except what pros do is a bit dopey.


Ciao

No teeth gnashing on what the pros do on my view, just the course is soft due to the weather over the last 3 months in Scotland and they still want to call it links golf or mention they are links players.
The weather in Scotland aside the Open courses are being set up with softer than normal greens to suit the tour. Yet they are happy to take the 340+ drives, nothing different to many US tour courses where the fairways are kept dry and shaved for the tour then go back to longer grass and soft so it looks like the tour guys are all bombers.

[Brent Hutto]

Andrew,


Be careful spending too much time absorbing the air of more-purist-than-thou around here. Before you know it, you're spouting utter bollocks!


What you're seeing played this week is as much links golf as golf could possibly be.

[Paul Gray]

A lot of gnashing of teeth over the pros and how they play...its a waste of time.  Forget what the pros do or if you don't like it, don't watch.  I wish we could once and for all frame discussions where it matters...joe bloggs. Using the pros as an example of anything except what pros do is a bit dopey.


Ciao

No teeth gnashing on what the pros do on my view, just the course is soft due to the weather over the last 3 months in Scotland and they still want to call it links golf or mention they are links players.
The weather in Scotland aside the Open courses are being set up with softer than normal greens to suit the tour. Yet they are happy to take the 340+ drives, nothing different to many US tour courses where the fairways are kept dry and shaved for the tour then go back to longer grass and soft so it looks like the tour guys are all bombers.

Well said, Andrew.

As any experienced links golfer will tell you, the nuances of the game are greatly reduced when darts becomes the order of the day.

Now then, perhaps we can move this thread on to where logic dictates and turn it into another thread about rolling the ball back. 

[David Lott]

Mr. Doak said :It's possible that Dustin Johnson is so long that he can overcome the historical defenses of the course.  It's also possible that he is just a train wreck waiting to happen when the wind changes, or when he makes a misstep or two.

[/size]Bogey, Bogey, Bogey Finish. Question answered for this year at least.[/color]

[Andrew Simpson]

Andrew,


Be careful spending too much time absorbing the air of more-purist-than-thou around here. Before you know it, you're spouting utter bollocks!


What you're seeing played this week is as much links golf as golf could possibly be.

Cheers Brent

I'm seeing winter links golf this week I'll grant you that. Fairways still have a bit of bounce then and you can fly mid/long irons in 15 feet from the flag. Not how things normally are in the summer but I'm sure I'll be corrected.

[James Brown]

Tom Doak called it exactly right, that DJ eventually hit a bad patch and it really cost him.   TOC still tests every shot and especially your putter.  I was wondering weather the soft conditions would yield historic scoring and so far the answer is no. 

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