[David_Tepper]

One of the Golf Channel's talking heads referred to TOC as a "bomber's paradise," citing the stat that the last 4 winners of the Open at TOC ranked 1st, 1st, 1st and 4th in driving distance the week they won the tournament.

How does this stat jibe with the notion that TOC is a test of thoughtful planning and strategy? Is it causation or just coincidence?

[Tom_Doak]

One of the Golf Channel's talking heads referred to TOC as a "bomber's paradise," citing the stat that the last 4 winners of the Open at TOC ranked 1st, 1st, 1st and 4th in driving distance the week they won the tournament.

How does this stat jibe with the notion that TOC is a test of thoughtful planning and strategy? Is it causation or just coincidence?

There is a case to be made that, even with longer back tees, the last twenty years of equipment technology allows the longer hitters to carry many hazards that had to be heeded before.  Indeed, even the previous winners [Seve, Nicklaus, Snead] were known more for their length than their accuracy off the tee; some attribute this to the fact that there are plenty of wide open spaces left for the long hitters to aim at.


However, the statistics might also be misleading.  I don't know how many drives they are measuring per round, but when going into a fairway bunker costs you 40 or 50 yards of roll, the players who drive it in the fewest bunkers will tend to lead in driving distance, and avoiding those hazards [however one does it] goes a good way toward winning the Open.

[Brent Hutto]

Tom has an excellent point about "driving distance" being influenced heavily by being in FW bunkers. But beyond that observation another question puzzles.

I've not played the old course so help me out with something.


What proportion of the "strategy" and "thinking" required is of the form Do Not Go In Any Fairway Bunker, Whatever You Must Do To Avoid Them?


Versus the proportion that has to do with angles into the greens, when to miss short rather than pin high or long, taking advantage of bounces or kick plates and so forth.


I think some links courses with very penal bunkers advantage the player with the most club head speed, not via driving distance, but by way of allowing him to lay way, way back and/or give up the best angles into greens and hit high long iron shots that less powerful players can't execute.


If you are like Tiger from 10-15 years ago and totally fearless about hitting a 220 yard shot over trouble and then ending up on the green even from less than perfect angle...it is possible to take the fairway bunkers out of play almost entirely. That was certainly Tiger's approach at Hoylake and I seem to remember Todd Hamilton playing all the long holes Hybrid/Hybrid rather than Driver/Iron when he won at Troon or Lytham (those two always muddle into each other in my mind).

[David_Tepper]

Tom & Brent -

I seem to remember that in at least one of Tiger's wins at TOC, he was not in any bunkers during the 4 rounds.
But I think that was because he either drove past them or to the left of them. On the other hand, at Hoylake he hit irons off the tees to lay up short of them.

So he has won the Open playing both short and long.

DT

[Bill_McBride]

There are two strategic imperatives when playing the Old Course:


Stay out of the fairway bunkers.


Play the angles, which generally means taking on the right side gorse going out and bunkers coming in. The safe left play out to the left (other than into one of the Beardies  ) generally leaves one facing big trouble getting close.  It's a big chess game out there. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,
 
John Daly might be able to respond.
 
Do you recall Nicklaus's commentary while Daly was playing the final round and in the playoff ?
 
Could it be that the bombers risk fewer bunkers ?

One of the Golf Channel's talking heads referred to TOC as a "bomber's paradise," citing the stat that the last 4 winners of the Open at TOC ranked 1st, 1st, 1st and 4th in driving distance the week they won the tournament.

How does this stat jibe with the notion that TOC is a test of thoughtful planning and strategy? Is it causation or just coincidence?

[David_Tepper]

Pat -

Your comments (and Jack's)  imply that long driving renders many of the strategic/subtle aspects of TOC somewhat irrelevant. At the very least, it neutralizes many of them. Is that what you mean to say?

DT

[Pat Burke]

I played in '95 in the Open.
Had a blessed week leading in to the tournament, and played 11 rounds.
I had a great feeling for the course (I thought).
When the tournament started, I felt the setup used absolutely favored bombers.
I did not feel that early in my practice rounds, but the hole locations gave huge advantages
many times.
Number two was a great example.  The right side of the green was never used, and on Sunday,
the pin was behind the giant mound , just before the back fringe.
I hit a nice tee shot, and had about 160 tot he hole.  A very good friend was caddying, and I was
dumbfounded with the shot.  There was no way I could get it within 40 feet of the hole.
I cannot remember the player, but he bombed one up the right, and basically had such a good angle, he could hit a low pitch to 15-20 feet.
The only way I could have hit it 15 feet, was to hit a low 2 iron and bank it off the scoreboard behind the
green
Length is ALWAYS an advantage, especially when there is a lot of room to hit it.  Oosthuizen, tIGER had great driver weeks (as did Daly the year I played), they set up a much easier course than a mid distance guy would get with those wild greens and hole locations!


All of that, and it was still the most memorable tournament of my career.  Loved the place

[David_Tepper]

Pat Burke -


Thanks very much for sharing your real world experience with us.


DT

[jeffwarne]

"Grip it and rip it"   is not thoughtful strategy?
One must at least consider what color M&M's to be munching on(or whatever the vice of the week is).
To be fair, Daly's win was much less a product of technology and much more a case of prodigiousness


Perhaps one day when the Open is played at Trump circle bunker Dune Valley National(or whatever they call it then ) the naysayers of us luddites will get it.


Headed out to TOC now

[Niall C]

Interesting comment from Tiger in a press conference earlier this week. He recounted how the first time he played TOC he was told to hit it hard and keep left. After playing it a few times he realised that wasn't the thing to do, it was far more nuanced than that.


Re Pats comments, I felt that at the last Open at TOC that a lot of the pins were placed close to the edge of plateau edges such as at the 12th and 16th. Kind of similar to sticking it behind a bunker. Obviously anyone hitting a shorter club has a much better chance of hitting the green and stopping close.


Niall

[Tim Fenchel]

Yes, Pat thanks for that insight.


Watching a few short hours of coverage this morning there was a decided advantage to having length off the tee.


On the outbound holes...Speith and DJ (playing in the same group) had two totally different games plans tailored to their skill and the both went 31 on the front side. 


Heading in it was a completely different story. DJ's length advantage with a headwind made quite a difference.  Certainly it also helped that he hit it straight and long...but it was clear how much length impacted those holes.

[PCCraig]

However, the statistics might also be misleading.  I don't know how many drives they are measuring per round, but when going into a fairway bunker costs you 40 or 50 yards of roll, the players who drive it in the fewest bunkers will tend to lead in driving distance, and avoiding those hazards [however one does it] goes a good way toward winning the Open.

That is an excellent observation.


Could length be more of an advantage on the approach shots, though? Watching Dustin Johnson play this morning, I figured he must have a tremendous advantage getting to "trickier" pin locations by being able to hit less club at a higher loft -- even with considerable wind (which the entire field is contending with, obviously). I suppose this is against the prevailing thought that high ball hitters don't play well on links -- but with today's technology, it seems that isn't the case as much anymore??

[Tom_Doak]

Could length be more of an advantage on the approach shots, though? Watching Dustin Johnson play this morning, I figured he must have a tremendous advantage getting to "trickier" pin locations by being able to hit less club at a higher loft -- even with considerable wind (which the entire field is contending with, obviously). I suppose this is against the prevailing thought that high ball hitters don't play well on links -- but with today's technology, it seems that isn't the case as much anymore??

Pat:


If the course is firm, or you're playing downwind, then driving long and left is not an advantage, as Tiger Woods observed ... it just gives you really awkward angles coming over deep bunkers to greens that won't hold, no matter how high you hit it.


If the course is soft, or you're playing into the wind, then it's possible to go over those bunkers with a high shot, and maybe stop somewhere near the hole, depending on how soft and how high and exactly which way the wind is blowing.  But you are also playing with fire, because you'll certainly make a bogey [and sometimes a double] if you come up short; and if you always miss long, your advantage goes away.


It's possible that Dustin Johnson is so long that he can overcome the historical defenses of the course.  It's also possible that he is just a train wreck waiting to happen when the wind changes, or when he makes a misstep or two.  That's why it will be interesting to watch. 


If I was a betting man, I'd bet on The Old Course.  Sure, the players are in red numbers, because par is 72 instead of 70.  Let's see how many players wind up at minus-8 come Sunday.

[Kalen Braley]

I think Tom is on to something., with avoiding bunkers is enough because the ball will roll out.
 
Zach Johnson and Retief Goosen are both right at the top and neither of those two are long, but they are very accurate. 

[Tim Fenchel]

I hope my post wasn't understood to be predicting DJ to go the distance...I certainly hope TOC prevails.  I just think with this mornings benign conditions, length was a nice skill to have in the bag...but you'd better have a lot of others as well.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Pat Burke, I too thank you for sharing your experience.


I remember 3 things from Daly's run in 1995.


Bob Rossberg commenting that it was scary watching him cut a 3 iron into the breeze at 14 for his second shot.


His tee shot on 18 Saturday came within 6" of going OB behind 1 tee. It rolled back down the mown hill and after a good lag putt, he tapped in for 3.


On 8 Sunday, during the worst of the wind, he sawed off an 8 iron and made 2 while the field was avereging around 3.5.

[Pat Burke]

Guys,
Happy to chime in.  That tournament is my favorite tournament in my career.
I played a practice round the weds before the tournament, and was the only player on the course that day!
Had my old sponsor caddy for me, which was a special thing for a guy that helped me so much.
Played a practice round with Daly and Crenshaw.  Crenshaw commented that Daly was rolling the ball incredibly! (not sure who could top that compliment)
Was sitting on the steps of the R&A when Rocco flubbed his chip, then made the putt (goosebumps)
And had to run to the locker room to get a yardage book for Greg Rita (Daly's caddie) when someone stole Daly's book when he was signing his card.  Mark Brooks gave me his book for John to use.  JD never knew it was missing.
It was just an amazing place, and week for my first Open and first time in St. Andrews

[Kalen Braley]

Pat,
 
 
Back then John was still a relative up and comer on the scene, and his 95 TOC win solidified his "I belong status".  Was there any signs back then that john would eventually be the ultimate bad boy of the tour? 
 
Thanks,

[Ben Sims]

BLUF: If the bomber is hitting targets, then every course is a bombers paradise.

Support: Longer players will always have a shorter club into the greens, no matter the course. If those shorter clubs are accurately struck, they will always have the advantage. Distance as a stand-alone factor is overrated. I think Dustin Johnson is in the lead because he is using accuracy to capitalize on superior length. If you can show me a golf course or an era in golf when being longer than your competitors was a disadvantage, then I'll concede the point.

[Pat Burke]

Pat,
 
 
Back then John was still a relative up and comer on the scene, and his 95 TOC win solidified his "I belong status".  Was there any signs back then that john would eventually be the ultimate bad boy of the tour? 
 
Thanks,

John was pretty infamous before he got on tour.  Playing in S Africa, heck just around home.
Always a good heart, he would help everybody but himself it seems

[Mark Bourgeois]

IIRC, Nicklaus's comments re Daly during the 1995 telecast were along the lines of, Daly is crazy to use driver the way he is.

[jeffwarne]

 

  Sure, the players are in red numbers, because par is 72 instead of 70. 

ding ding-we have a winner


was pretty breezy(windy late) and cool out there today.
But the course is receptive due to recent rains


very interesting watching today-learned a lot about the course by watching rather than playing.


The course and logistics are VERY spectator friendly.
My wife, who's 5'2 said she's never seen so much golf at a tournament (she's been to multiple Masters and few US Opens)

[Andrew Simpson]

Yes, Pat thanks for that insight.


Watching a few short hours of coverage this morning there was a decided advantage to having length off the tee.


On the outbound holes...Speith and DJ (playing in the same group) had two totally different games plans tailored to their skill and the both went 31 on the front side. 


Heading in it was a completely different story. DJ's length advantage with a headwind made quite a difference.  Certainly it also helped that he hit it straight and long...but it was clear how much length impacted those holes.

Long and straight is a good combo anywhere, any time, any day! 
To say it's a bombers paradise is rather simplistic, it depends on a few factors. Course runout and wind strength/direction being 2/3. With the greens being so big and can have small effective areas which change everyday, what might be a great drive one day might leave you badly positioned the next.
The shorter club to fly a ridge theory is only really relevant with many players playing target golf on a links course. To a true links player with ability, laying up to allow a shot to come in with less spin and run up (specially in wind) is a skill that can defeat length.
That said it seems to be a lost art these days, where someone putting from a yard off the green is considered a great links player!

[David_Tepper]

"The shorter club to fly a ridge theory is only really relevant with many players playing target golf on a links course. To a true links player with ability, laying up to allow a shot to come in with less spin and run up (specially in wind) is a skill that can defeat length. That said it seems to be a lost art these days, where someone putting from a yard off the green is considered a great links player!"

Andrew S. -

The reality sure seems to be that the world class players these days are so good with their wedge play that, 9 times out of 10, they would rather loft the ball to hole than play the old bump & run. Unless the greens are rock hard and/or the wind is howling, "target golf" is very much the preferred method. For these guys the bump & run is a quaint relic from golf days gone by.
DT
 

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