[Jim Nugent]

I''d say if Jack was primarily responsible for tee to green and Tom did the greens then it worked out just fine for both of them.

Jack was NOT primarily responsible for tee to green: Tom did the routing.  Plus Tom did nearly all the greens. 

[Mark Pritchett]

Basically, Doak handled the greens and Jack handled the ball striking strategy.

Thanks Jim.  I was going off of Pete's quote above.  Either way I like the course a lot. 

[Pete Lavallee]

Mark,


I didn't realize your Seboneck question was a quiz. I have no special insight, however the two most important parts of any golf course are the routing and green designs and Tom was responsible for both at Seboneck. Ask yourself this: does Seboneck look more like Pacific Dunes or Muirfield Village? I think that even the most casual observer would see the similarity to the Doak style there.


I don't doubt the fact that Jack has pleased many clients and some golfers are thrilled to play his courses. I forgot to included Sherwood CC as one of his courses that I have played. Indeed the 5 par 5's there are excellent and I would agree that his insight as the games greatest player helps on that front. However my objection can be perfectly summed up in the Centenuary Course at Gleneagles. To drop an American TPC layout into the rolloing hills of the Scottish Highlands is a sin that should be punishable by more than just death! How any sane man could build that monstrosity next to the Kings and Queens courses is mind boggling! I sure there are many gca's who could have come up with a much more sympathetic creation worthy of Scotland's heritage. I just don't want to see this repeated in Wirral.

[Mark Pritchett]

Thanks Pete.  Certainly not a quiz by me, just curious about the making of Sebonack. 


Regarding the Gleneagles course, are you suggesting the client wasn't pleased?

[Pete Lavallee]

Mark,


Here's where I see the difference, if the owner of Gleneagles approached TD and asked for an American style tournament course to possibly attract a Ryder Cup, TD would have said no thanks. Jack on the other hand was all ears. You can use use your craft to generate great pieces of art or to line the pockets of your extened family; guess who falls into those two categories?

[Mark Pritchett]

If an "American Style" course in the Scotland is a sin, do you view a "Links Style" course in the U.S. a sin?


Is a Bandon Dunes a sin?

[Pete Lavallee]

I stand by my statement, Doak is in it for the art and Jack is in it for the money. And yes TD likes a little money and Jack likes a little art!

[Brian Finn]

To drop an American TPC layout into the rolloing hills of the Scottish Highlands is a sin that should be punishable by more than just death!

Hyperbolize much?


Why is it a sin?  Whoever hired him obviously knew what to expect and had a chance to approve the plan. I'm guessing they got exactly what they wanted.

[BCowan]

Muirfield Village is the only top JN course I have played that I can think of off the top of my head.  The land is amazing, there is no denying that.  I do Not consider it top in the world, probably top 20 in Ohio.  It has water on about 14 holes and using water is a crutch IMO.  It's constantly renovated and has tried to copy ANGC through out the years.  The biggest thing is how one dimensional the place is, it requires a high fade and is devoid of many ground game options and creativity.  Many of my well traveled friends that I value their opinion like MVGC.  I think the fact that it is a chemical plant and the maint presentation impresses people.  I think JN high maint budgets and the fact he gets many of the top pieces of land due to name branding are why he has more courses in top 100.  Dismal River is a course that interests me to play of his.   I have abstained from playing any Doak courses for fear I might like them and become a Butt Boy.  I hope to one day play an Ian Andrew, Nuzzo, Spence, Rogers, and Staples track. 

[Mark Pritchett]

Thanks Pete.  So links style in America is good and American style in Scotland is a sin.


I believe once someone does something for money, they are "in it" for the money, period. 


Doak, C&C = Art


Nicklaus, Fazio = Greed


Got it! 

[Pete Lavallee]

To drop an American TPC layout into the rolloing hills of the Scottish Highlands is a sin that should be punishable by more than just death!

Hyperbolize much?


Why is it a sin?  Whoever hired him obviously knew what to expect and had a chance to approve the plan. I'm guessing they got exactly what they wanted.

Brian,


Have you played the Kings or Queens courses at Gleneagles? They are both World class and are true to their environments. Classic architecture via James Braid. Sorry you don't hand a black velvet Elvis next to Mona Lisa!

[Mark Pritchett]

Pete,


Have you played the Nicklaus course at Gleneagles? 


I like Elvis!


Mark

[Brian Finn]

To drop an American TPC layout into the rolloing hills of the Scottish Highlands is a sin that should be punishable by more than just death!

Hyperbolize much?


Why is it a sin?  Whoever hired him obviously knew what to expect and had a chance to approve the plan. I'm guessing they got exactly what they wanted.

Brian,


Have you played the Kings or Queens courses at Gleneagles? They are both World class and are true to their environments. Classic architecture via James Braid. Sorry you don't hand a black velvet Elvis next to Mona Lisa!

No, so far my only visits to Scotland have been focused on the links courses between Cruden Bay (furthest north I've been) and North Berwick. As you know, there's a lot to see between those two points.


For the record, I'm not real interested in visiting American style courses in Scotland, but I'm even less interested in telling others what they are/are not allowed to like. To invoke the great Ben Cowan (Michigan), I think you're stuck in a bit of group think (did you just get your new set of 3x5 cards?).  Why not allow for different styles and designs, particularly when it is clear that there is demand for it?  Through this exchange, it seems clear to me that you're the one with a myopic view of golf architecture.


PS. I think the Mona Lisa is ugly.

[Pete Lavallee]

Just for the record it think Jack is a great person a fine family Man and the greatest golfer on the planet. Unfortunately he's not a great golf course architect. That stats speak for themselves, 290 chances and not a single top 25 course. I m glad that Mark and Brian enjoy playing his courses. He had his chance to build a great course in the Sand Hills but had to make many changes at Dismal White to get it right. What I find most amazing is that he never visited Sand Hills to see what he was competing against? Perhaps he is the best choice for the Wirral project as it appears to be a flat featureless sight which won't yield a true links course. In that case I hope it proves a huge success for the Wirral folks!

[BHoover]

Pete, for the record, Muirfield Village GC is ranked 15 on GD's 100 greatest courses list. I believe 15 is within the top 25.

[John Kavanaugh]

From an investment standpoint should the percentage of built courses that failed matter to anyone? Who leads that stat?

[BCowan]

From an investment standpoint should the percentage of built courses that failed matter to anyone? Who leads that stat?

They say the old laughing lady don't keep time, she don't keep score

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R-ioccTrKk

[Mark_Rowlinson]

There is an existing Nicklaus course a few miles from the Wirral at Carden Park near Chester. It's not very good. Flat as a pancake. There a couple of water holes and the odd hole on which there's some alternative strategy. Other than that it is very dull. Yet people queue up to play it, flying in in their private helicopters and so on. But it's not a patch on its near neighbour Delamere Forest.


Apart from Royal Liverpool and Wallasey there's nothing much else of note on the Wirral. Heswall and Caldy have some near seaside merits and Prenton still has some surviving MacKenzie, otherwise I'd go for Wirral Ladies' as being the star club in that part of the world. This new Nicklaus course will have little to challenge it.

[Mark Pritchett]

Unfortunately he's not a great golf course architect. That stats speak for themselves, 290 chances and not a single top 25 course. I m glad that Mark and Brian enjoy playing his courses.

Thanks Pete, I respectfully disagree with your opinion that golf course architects are determined to be great or not by magazine rankings.  I suppose you do not view Donald Ross as great either as his "batting average" would be barely better the Nicklaus.


I judge golf architects by the metric of if I have fun on a course and want to go back and play it again.  For me that includes many Nicklaus courses.

[Thomas Dai]

Students of political theory can ponder a situation where a socialist dominated local authority are promoting an oft perceived elitist leisure activity.
Atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

Formby is one of the great courses of England, but among retail golfers the nearby Formby Hall is probably better known. It is a parkland hotel resort course with lots of water piggy-backing on its proximity to Royal Birkdale and other old links courses. I've never been tempted to visit.


I imagine that "Hoylake Village" or whatever they decide to call it will do very well. I don't suppose that I'll bother though...

[Garland Bayley]

Interestingly if you read Fazio & Nicklaus arch. books, they are concerned with beauty (art?). If you read Doak, he is concerned with strategy (intellect?).

So is Nicklaus painting on black velvet, and Doak on canvas?

[Bill_McBride]

A very sound choice by the good folks in Wirral. From the article:
 
During his career Nicklaus has won 18 professional major championships, and his company has almost 380 courses open for play in 36 countries, with Jack Nicklaus involved in the design of 290 of the courses. At least 70 Nicklaus Design courses have been ranked by major industry publications.
 
So out of 290 course he has been involved in he has exactly 6 courses in the three major Top 100 lists:
 
Muirfield Village, mostly Desmond Muirhead
Sebonac, relied heavily on Tom Doak
Harbor Town, Pete Dye
which leaves:
Vallhalla
Castle Pines
Mayacama
Shoal Creek
Concession
Now that's a great track record, I can't wait to play a Vallhalla style layout next time I'm in  Wirral!

You're missing something Pete

I'll bite, what?

[Frank M]

I've played a few Nicklaus courses and can say I have enjoyed them all. I was enthralled by Dismal River and commented that if I was looking to build a course it would be the course that makes me seriously consider Nicklaus. I was pleasantly surprised by Mayacoo Lakes in Florida, still enjoy Glen Abbey though its shine has worn off over time, think Concession is very solid and nothing has to be said about Muirfield Village.

I'd hire Jack to design a golf course for me if I had the $$, but I'd give him one stipulation...take chances.

[Pete Lavallee]

Bill,


Greg was referring to the Nicklaus course in Cabo, certainly his highest rated course.


His defenders seem to overlook quite a bit in their strident defense of the Golden Bear. Does he do the routing and design the green complexes? I would suspect these tasks again fall to the asscociates. So he tweeks things and putts the final stamp on, taking full responsibility for the project. So really your hiring the team and not really Jack aren't you?

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