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Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Role of Greens Committee
« on: July 09, 2015, 11:11:00 AM »
One of the least entertaining trends in golf is “Internet Turf Knowledge.” I deal with more than my share of greens committees including the one at my own home club. Just because you read the USGA literature or other resources on agronomic issues, doesn’t mean you can tell your golf superintendent how to produce quality turf. I find often the people who like to espouse their opinions are usually woefully short of all the information.

I’m smart enough to know that I can’t grow turf and to never have an opinion on golf courses turfgrass. I limit my own opinion to how the architecture would play best and how we can improve growing environments (that’s where I can be most helpful).

The level of micromanagement is at an all-time high and it’s become clear by what I hear that people believe that once they read an article on turf that they know what every process is done for or what the product does. They know better than the Golf Course Superintendent. I find this attitude to be dangerous.

A number of years ago I wrote a piece about what is the role of a greens committee and in the very generalist of terms it’s the following:

1. Set a budget
2. Set realistic expectations within that budget
3. Put the staff in a place where they can succeed
4. It’s not your role to give them a weekly to do list or tell them how to do their job
5. Communication with the Membership (thanks Jeff)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 11:34:50 AM by Ian Andrew »
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2015, 11:18:18 AM »
The Greens Committee can be a great vehicle for communication to the membership. Maybe that should be item #5. Any well functioning committee follows the steps that you provide. As for dangerous...

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2015, 11:33:03 AM »
I agree with your point on communication.


As for dangerous ... they fire superintendents ... often for what's not possible
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 11:36:37 AM by Ian Andrew »
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2015, 11:50:35 AM »
Yes, the cost of learning that lesson is costly for both the membership and the fired employee.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2015, 11:55:43 AM »
Ian


Often it's a case of knowing enough to know you don't know enough, if you know what I mean !


In that way circulars on agronomy issues either from representative bodies or manufaturers can illustarte to those on the greens committee that expert knowledge is required and thereby perhaps raising the standing of the greenkeeper. The flip side to this is of course that the greenkeeper agronomist may be put under the spotlight to explain their thinking rather than being left a free hand to get on and do as they want. I don't think that's any different from many other walks of life. I'd be surprised though if there are that many greens committees out there interested and wanting to take an active hands on management role though, not unless they are sadists.


From what I've seen over here many greenkeepers seem happy to embrace having to explain what they are up to judging by the amount of blogs/emails keeping members advised as to ongoing work. To my mind this can only be a good thing.


With regards to your list, wouldn't 1 and 2 go hand in hand ? No pointing having a budget if it doesn't achieve what you are setting out to do. Likewise no point entering into a course of action if you don't have the means to see it through.


Niall







Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2015, 11:57:52 AM »
The best greens committee is an ice storm. The second-best greens committee is...no committee.

Yes/no/maybe?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

RKoehn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2015, 12:29:02 PM »
Ian - just saw your name here over lunch, and wanted to ask if you'd be willing to share your thoughts on Springdale GC and your work there?  I stopped by there to check it out (my old college home course, and my grandfather was the 1st club champion there back in '27), and in talking with the pro he spoke very highly of your work. 


Would particularly appreciate your commentary on the extent that you were allowed by the membership to restore Flynn's work - sounds like they were working with a limited budget. 


There is a large aerial photo on the wall of the golf shop where the course has squared bunkers and greens on a number of holes - this may have even pre-dated Flynn.


Thanks!

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2015, 11:53:46 PM »
Ian,
 I hear what your saying and kind of agree and disagree if that is posible. First of all, in this day and age it is very difficult to put, blind trust in anyone. I think its a big part of the Superintendents role to educate who ever his authorities are with the final results of gaining the confidence, trust and respect and this should come about through results that coincide with words.
 I personally don´t trust doctors (in our present society the most educated segment of the population) and I will surf all I can before and after an appointment. There seems to be much more controversy in that field via internet surfing than in turfgrass management. I in fact, if I detect any apprehension I ask them to do there own investigation via internet and 95% of the time they do, there more inclined to understand my recommendations because they find reinforcement of what I am recommending.
  When I was in college in Massachusetts, almost forty years ago, I heard from our turf proffessor time and time again that 90 percent of the supers over wáter. I am sure that has dropped especially with the improvements with technology but there is still a lot of overwatering going on. If your a good golfer and play frequently you don´t need to be a rocket scientist to come to the conclusions the greens are being over watered.
    Chile is heavily dependent on agricultural so the agronomic field is big here and as a results lots of committee members are agronomist but there specialty is grapes or alvocado or whatever. They seem to be the most dangerous but I have learned the ego takes over and they just want to show fellow members how much in the know they are (sometimes which happens on this site too) So, I let them go on and on and when there 100% wrong, the worst thing you can do is call them on it in front of there peers. You do that and you have an enemy for life! Instead, I do it on a one on one basis, better over lunch and explain where they are mistaking and invite them to surf afterwards the particular theme and once again and they find justification for what I am telling them. One or two episodes like this and they understand they are over there heads and in good hands with a qualified proffesional and back off and often become my biggest supporters.
    Obviously this doesn´t always works and what your saying is valid in some instances, for example, I am currently involved directly or indirectly with clubs in Chile with dfferent grasses ranging from A1 and A4 mix which is my personal favorite, pennlinks, penncross, seaside II and one club that is 100% poa that choaked out and eliminated 95% of the orignal dwarf base over a fifteen year period. The club with the penncross greens has had the least disease pressure over the past two years in comparrison to the other grasses and also they do the least amount of cultural practices, I am impressed and surprized. The only downfall is there has been segregation and they can have a patchy appearance and more so in the winter but they putt beautifully year around! With all the money that is in play with new varieties development and the marketing that goes with them you won´t find on the internet anything even close to what my observation have been in the performance of Penncross compared to any of the new varieties that I have listed.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 11:12:18 AM by Randy Thompson »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2015, 01:11:17 AM »
I am with Randy...blind trust with an employee is a head in the sand approach.


To me the Greens Comm is meant to hire the right person for the job, convey to the Super what the members want and provide the tools/budget to meet the expectations.  Its up to the Super to meet the expectations or explain why they can't be met.  Not much different to any other management role. The only thing I might add is the Greens Comm and Super should have a medium to long term plan as part of the expectations.  A Super can't be expected to alter the plan each year and produce good results.  To me, that is setting a guy up for failure. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2015, 02:54:08 AM »
Geez, Randy. Are there not enough paragraphs to go around in South America?
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2015, 07:08:46 AM »
Geez, Randy. Are there not enough paragraphs to go around in South America?
I am sorry Steve, wrote this at 2 in the morning. But your right, should have taken the time to review and make corrections.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 11:10:52 AM by Randy Thompson »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2015, 08:40:09 AM »



Does this scenario seem familiar?:)
atb

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2015, 09:01:26 AM »
Agree/Disagree, too.


First, this assumes that the you have in place a green keeper of the highest quality; one who has the complete trust and respect of the BOD and membership. (Not always the case.)


Second, the club belongs to the members. The GM, super, pro and chef are all employees of the club who answer to the board. Just like a congressman, a super's #1 priority is to keep his job.


Third, what it DOES say in the USGA guide to greens committees is that a club's green keeper is "only as good as his grounds and greens committee".


This topic (GnG committees) is much more worthy of debate than almost anything else - IMO. If there is a productive relationship between the triumvirate of BOD>GnG>Green Keeper, then the members win.


BOD sets high level goals and assigns budgets.
GnG acts as oversight (among many other things.
Greens staff executes to plan.


However, if your club is fortunate enough to have a "world-class" super, then just get out of the way and let him grow grass. But, just like every other business in this world, that is usually the exception rather than the rule. That's why (private) compnaies have boards, advisors, etc. Checks and balances.

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2015, 12:08:51 PM »
Sean,

I don't recall saying blind trust.



In essence I said individuals on committees are overestimating their own turf knowledge  and hindering the Superintendent by influencing maintenance practices.

Watching members debate the application of a growth regulator was bizarre.

Not against committees, just frustrated by the interference in issues they don't understand. They should stick to architecture  ;D
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2015, 12:36:12 PM »
"Broadly speaking, the only thing which should be allowed to interfere with the greenkeeper is the weather."
  -  Tom Simpson, Design for Golf

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2015, 04:51:14 PM »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2015, 11:25:22 PM »
I think we may see the day when the management structure of most of our 501-7c private clubs will change and the green committee as we know it will disappear.  Most committees are no longer capable of operating their clubs efficiently and the business has changed so much over the last 40 years that more professional help is needed.   I just see it as changing times.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2015, 12:30:40 AM »
FWIW it is "Green Committee" not "Greens"   8)
It's all about the golf!

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2015, 04:19:59 AM »

To me the Greens Comm is meant to hire the right person for the job, convey to the Super what the members want


The problem is Sean, the members don't always want what is right. I once had an interview for a Super's job where I was told that the greens had to be soft at all times!  :o . Didn't get that one thank God.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2015, 05:05:10 AM »

To me the Greens Comm is meant to hire the right person for the job, convey to the Super what the members want


The problem is Sean, the members don't always want what is right. I once had an interview for a Super's job where I was told that the greens had to be soft at all times!  :o . Didn't get that one thank God.


Marc


I am not sure why that is a problem.  What the employer wants is what is right.


Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2015, 07:04:11 AM »
I think we may see the day when the management structure of most of our 501-7c private clubs will change and the green committee as we know it will disappear.  Most committees are no longer capable of operating their clubs efficiently and the business has changed so much over the last 40 years that more professional help is needed.   I just see it as changing times.

No idea what a 501-7 club is (501-7 is a cricket score in my world), but I'm fairly sure I agree.

The once tolerable ignorance of the aristocratic golf club committee, tolerable because they could afford to pay for their mistakes and half likely have a blazing argument with Tom Simpson en route, is no longer a model which clubs can support, either publicly or financially.

An over supply of courses means a somewhat Darwinian need for professionalism. Get it wrong and/or fail to effectively grasp and expertly explain what is going on and you cease to exist long term.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2015, 07:21:50 AM »
The second-best greens committee is...no committee.


I think we may see the day when the management structure of most of our 501-7c private clubs will change and the green committee as we know it will disappear.  Most committees are no longer capable of operating their clubs efficiently and the business has changed so much over the last 40 years that more professional help is needed.   I just see it as changing times.

See, the problem with a committee is that one of two things tends to occur after it is created:
1) it does nothing;
2) it does something.

When you make the name of a committee rather specific, eg "greens committee," its members tend to get the mistaken impression they are supposed to do something about what's in their title. This is how committees produce camels, or to pull from the zeitgeist, you expect a horse...but you get a goat. And no one wants a goat.
https://youtu.be/omNifHK_kXM?t=7
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Role of Greens Committee
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2015, 08:30:38 AM »


No idea what a 501-7 club is (501-7 is a cricket score in my world), but I'm fairly sure I agree.


Paul,
It is a tax exempt status.  Most member owned private clubs in the US are tax exempt. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"