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Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2015, 07:26:30 AM »
Lahinch 5th (blind par-3).

GLawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2015, 09:22:31 AM »
Swinley Forest 18.  Maybe it's the American in me but you never know which British Lord or celebrity will be on that patio:)

John Percival

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2015, 10:04:46 AM »
8 at BB (Old)
2 at Tralee (though not iconic...yet)
12 at Kingsbarns
7 at Rye

and the best, and beast, pound for pound,
PS at Troon



Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2015, 10:10:03 AM »

Klondyke & Dell
Pennard 7
Rye 4
St Enodoc 4 & 6
Road Hole
Woking 4
Huntercombe 3
Brancaster 4 & 8
Dornoch Foxy
Aberdovey Cader & 16
Addington 12 & 13
Painswick 5
Swinley 12
Machrihanish 1
Kington 18


Additions:

Postage Stamp
Calamity Corner
County Down 9
Cruden Bay 14
Sandwich 4
TOC 14
Carnoustie 6? 
Lytham 17? 
Ballybunion 11?
Cruden Bay 4? 
Hoylake 1? 
 


How bout other candidates?


Ciao

I'm assuming you are not using 'iconic' and 'world class' synonymously and that 'iconic' is your trump term, in which case these mods to your list
Rye 4
Addington 12
TOC 11
Turnberry 9 while it lasts!
Rye 18 (primarily due to NLE Soup Bowl)
Belfry 10
Whichever hole on Leven / Lundin is the CBM template hole (ha!)

To be honest, thanks to the Open just about any 18th on the rota could be classified as such, yes?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2015, 11:03:03 AM »
RCD 9
Ballybunion 11


These resonate in my mind

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2015, 11:08:07 AM »
Gibraltar at Moortown (10th) - http://www.moortown-gc.co.uk/hole10.html


atb

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2015, 11:22:17 AM »
10 & 18 at The Belfry.


18 at Carnoustie.





Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2015, 04:47:37 PM »
What's the definition of 'iconic' we're using here?

To me, based on the original list, I'd say that means holes that are a big influence on architecture - i.e. imitations / homages to the Redan or Road Hole found at any places, or simply the architecturally knowledgeable seeing the parallels. On that basis, most of the holes listed after don't belong. Even holes that are maybe 'iconic' using the definition of "a hole that once you see it you will always remember it", because I've played most of them but only can come up with a mental picture for half of them.

Consider the difference between Lahinch's Klondkye and Dell. Both are something you will always remember, but the Klondkye is not something anyone is likely to deliberately build - even if Doak found a routing with a natural 50 foot hill in the middle of his prospective fairway I doubt he'd build that hole (but maybe I'm wrong, and he'd do it if the owner let him do whatever he wanted, if he reads this I'd be curious to know) The Dell, on the other hand, is imitated, knowingly or not, the world over. Heck a NLE nine holer I learned to play on my first summer had a sorta Dell hole (about 140 yards, slightly uphill, half blind sunken green with mounds around it)  Whoever designed that hole had probably never even heard of Lahinch, but it stood out in my mind as a Dell hole afterwards. While a hole like Old Head's 4th is certainly memorable, it is to imagine ever seeing another hole that reminds me of it because the setting is so unique it cannot be replicated elsewhere.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

David Whitmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2015, 04:59:41 PM »
Sean,

How about Royal Dornoch #2? I read many instances where guys literally chipped from one side of the green to the other more than once, and I wondered if, as a decent player, I could ever succumb to that design. On my second play over the course I did just that. It got me, and I had been thinking about it prior to it happening. What a hole.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2015, 07:21:47 PM »
Sunningdale Old #12.  Fantastic hole designed by Park and green complex improved by Colt.  According to Pat Mucci it was Macdonald's inspiration for the Bottle Hole, #8 at National.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 07:34:05 PM by Jim Hoak »

Garrett McKnight

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2015, 11:51:34 PM »
Royal Aberdeen #1


After playing 17 rounds across Scotland last month, this hole was by far the best opening hole and one of the best overall. A phenomenal starting hole.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2015, 12:20:59 AM »
I have to add Westward Ho! 9.  It is one of the best reachable, even by normal players, par fives on the planet.i agree that number six with its lumpy fairway is an iconic looking hole.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2015, 12:21:23 AM »
Not sure what you are looking for but the first holes I thought of are all on the same course - North Berwick 13, 15, 16

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2015, 02:12:42 AM »
I agree with Doug.  "Iconic" does not apply to the orgiinal list.  "Quirky" would be more appropriate, and if so, roughly 1/2 of the holes at Painswick would qualify.  Maybe the adjective is "replicable?"  Nope--who would ever be able, or even try to replicate the 4th at Rye?  How many "Redan's" come close to replicating The Redan?  Few, if any ,in my experience.  Maybe the adjective is "irreplicable."  NGLA (for example) is the poster child for the inability of replicating interesting golf holes.  It's "Eden" and "Leven" and "Alps" and "Road" holes, et.al.  are all interesting but in no way intimating the most relevant characteristics of their namesakes.

More likely, the proper word is "unique."  No architect has yet come close to even evoking (much less imitating) such holes as 4 at Rye, 14 at Dornoch, 13 at Prestwick or North Berwick, or 6 at Brora or Painswick.  As the Irish would say, the most interesting golf holes are "themselves."
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2015, 06:36:30 AM »
Not many Turnberry mentions - perhaps that's it's architectural problem. I'll nominate the 10th, and even though the 18th is pretty straightforward there are a lot of TV viewers who know the hole well after watching Tom Watson play a few final rounds there. Neither hole is good enough for a nickname though, or at least one I remember.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2015, 08:32:53 AM »
Merriam-Webster online gives the following definition of 'iconic:'

1:  of, relating to, or having the characteristics of an icon
2 a  :  widely recognized and well-established      b  :  widely known and acknowledged especially for distinctive excellence

Using the 2nd definitions, a lot of the holes mentioned qualify as iconic. 
 

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2015, 09:57:12 AM »

What's iconic mean?


To me unique matters more than great to become iconic, but that's my definition I guess.


So, here's my unique "architectural" features that continue to hang in my mind


2nd green at St. Andrews
3rd approach and green at Elie13th fairway and green at Fraserburg
16th green at North Berwick
6th green contours at Ballybunnion
14th hole at Royal Dornoch
9th green at Prestwick
6th hole at St. Enodoc
5th at Gleneagles
5th green at Baltray
13th green site at Cruden Bay







"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2015, 04:24:55 PM »
Not many Turnberry mentions - perhaps that's it's architectural problem. I'll nominate the 10th, and even though the 18th is pretty straightforward there are a lot of TV viewers who know the hole well after watching Tom Watson play a few final rounds there. Neither hole is good enough for a nickname though, or at least one I remember.

Pretty sure these holes are soon to be NLE,  as you have known and loved them.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2015, 07:29:29 PM »
Instead of "iconic" what do you think of "exalted" as a descriptor?

When I give this consideration I think of holes like "Foxy" at Royal Dornoch. It is a hole that is held in exceptionally high regard, but would never be created by one of today's architects.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2015, 01:17:08 AM »
Ed, Mark P, Mike C, atb, GLawson, John P, - I am not sure any of those holes are really iconic or internationally exhaulted. 


Jim - its new, but yes, Belfry 10 qualifies in my mind.


Mark B, I can go along with deleting Addy 12, but I am not convinced Rye 4 should go. 


atb - Gibraltor?  How does this hole separate from Redan?


Ryan C - not what I had in mind


David W - there is an argument for Dornoch 2


Jim - 12 Sunny Old isn't doing it for me


Tommy - maybe with RND 6, but 9 is the better hole  ;)

[/size][size=78%]Matt - I can buy Turberry 10[/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Ian - I already have your applicable examples[/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Ciao [/size]




New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2015, 03:03:13 AM »

atb - Gibraltor?  How does this hole separate from Redan?



Tilts towards you not away. Absolutely great hole though similar to the 11th at Alwoodley and do not forget it used to be the 17th originally.

Ed Tilley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2015, 03:55:28 AM »
Ed, Mark P, Mike C, atb, GLawson, John P, - I am not sure any of those holes are really iconic or internationally exhaulted. 


Sean,

I'm not really sure what you're asking then? Are any of the below holes on your list really iconic or internationally exalted, certainly when compared to RND 6 or Sunningdale 18?

Rye 4
St Enodoc 4
Woking 4
Brancaster 4 & 8
Aberdovey Cader & 16
Addington 12 & 13
Swinley 12

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2015, 04:19:12 AM »
Not sure Sean himself knows, Ed....

There are holes that are iconic to the larger golfing world. These are usually the most photographed, most discussed and ones that make it on to best of lists in magazines....

Or there are the holes that are both great and somewhat unique that have informed a century of golf course architects and GCA nerds...

Those are the options. Sometimes a hole straddles both lists.

Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2015, 04:27:23 AM »
Sean, maybe we should ask TW, he knows a thing or two about iconic holes.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ICONIC GB&I HOLES
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2015, 04:27:51 AM »
Ed


I think Ally is about right even if I don't know whats its called.


Sunny 18 isn't particularly famous other than as a finishing hole for an iconic course.  There are likely a load of iconic courses which don't really have a seriously distinctive hole in the big scheme of things.  If any hole at Sunny would take the mantle I would guess 7, but even that is a stretch.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing