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Sam Morrow

Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« on: July 05, 2015, 06:38:57 PM »
After a wonderful trip last week to the midwest my mind was filled with great memories from the trip but something kept eating at me. Is Dismal Doak better than Sand Hills?

The topic came up a few different times at Dismal with people who've never played Sand Hills asking how much better a course it is. It occurred to me, I can't find any reason to say Sand Hills is definitely better. At first thought I'd say they are very even but when I really think about it I keep realizing that I seem to prefer the Doak.


RJ_Daley

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2015, 07:37:16 PM »
A 10 is a 10 in my mind based on the design and architectural merits, Doak DR and SHGC, including routing and sense of place, and ability to provide consistent golfing pleasure. 

I think Sand Hills has more resources and consistent maintenance quality due to education and experience of the Superintendent. 

I think Sand Hills is significantly different in clubhouse facilities and flexibility to provide the sort of experience offered at Dismal River.  Sand Hills seems to me to be more formal in traditional clubhouse milieu. 

As a total experience as a guest and participating in a gathering like 5th Major (even if you could move the 5th Major some years to Sand Hills) I would favor Dismal River 8-2.  As a golf only proposition, I would divide them 5-5   Doak DR v SHGC.


But, throw in the Nicklaus course as a bonus, with that much more diversity and opportunity to play extra interesting holes, and if it is a consideration as to which club I'd join, it is a no brainer to me.... DR wins on that overall comparative basis. 

The staff and management make one feel very welcome at both places.  But, Chris connects to the guests in a manner so personal and familiar, that I feel like it could be home.
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2015, 08:19:34 PM »
I'm really hoping to get to the Fifth Major next year.....want to see Dismal. 

Carl Rogers

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2015, 09:47:33 PM »

Have had the privilege of playing multiple TD Renaissance courses, but ....I am always be-fuddled by this type of thread. 
Two reasons for this:
1. When so many great courses, as defined by the magazine rankings and the consensus of a few, are so intensely private, how can a broader range of the golfing public make an assessment?  (You do not know what you do not know.)
2. As much as people and organizations try to be objective they aren't and can't be.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 07:16:38 AM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Sam Morrow

Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2015, 09:52:39 PM »
Carl,

Why can't people be objective? I've played both and I'm not affiliated with either club.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2015, 10:25:26 PM »
Carl,

Why can't people be objective? I've played both and I'm not affiliated with either club.


Your tag line doesn't say "I've met Bill Coore," does it?
Coming in 2024
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Sam Morrow

Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2015, 10:28:10 PM »
Carl,

Why can't people be objective? I've played both and I'm not affiliated with either club.


Your tag line doesn't say "I've met Bill Coore," does it?

But I've met Ben Crenshaw several times.

Connor Dougherty

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2015, 12:19:12 AM »
The fact of the matter is, these threads, when so many of us have a personal connection to not only the people who run them, but the places themselves, can become toxic. The Dismal/Ballyneal thread a while back is a good example of this.


This is a site about golf course architecture, and we should be willingly able, and respectful, debating the architectural merits, also understanding that they do not encompass the entire golfing experience (something which I touched on at this years 5th Major one of the nights by the fire).


So, my feeling is that while Dismal Doak is a wonderfully good golf course, and a club that I would love to be a member at in the future, the most minute details put it just a step below Sand Hills. The Doak course is filled with terrific golf holes, and I think there are world class holes to be found at the 4th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 13th, 16th, and 18th holes. But the 15th and 17th feel slightly awkward to me (although still fun to play) and the 18th finishing away from the 1st, a minute problem that I don't necessarily think should have been handled differently, is a slight disadvantage.


But then there are the things that Sand Hills does which makes it extroardinary. The way it mixes the sizes of its various greens, providing great variety while still feeling like you're on the same golf course, is remarkable. The land is a bit less dramatic, which means it lacks some of the backdrops which Dismal excels at, but makes it more suitable for golf. It's bunkers are wonderfully mixed, ranging from the deceptive to the dominant, often scaring you to death, sometimes scratching your head as to how you could fear a bunker which leaves so much room. It's not necessarily that Dismal doesn't accomplish these feats, but more that Sand Hills does it so often. Everything fits into the land so magically that I still struggle to figure out which holes were the finest and which were the weakest.


And I'll be very blunt about my potential prejudices: I played the best round of my life at Sand Hills, and ever since I got into architecture, it has always been a mythical place that I had only dreamed of playing. Getting the chance to walk out on the first tee last week is something I'll never forget, and for these reasons, I may struggle to reasonably evaluate the golf course. But I've spent much of this previous week trying to separate my emotional attachments from the architectural merits of each course. What I will add and say is that the last week, both the 5th Major and my rounds after leaving Dismal River, have been some of the most fun rounds of golf in my life, and I've been so lucky to share them with incredible people, some who post here and some who have tagged along. We're fooling ourselves if we think one is significantly better than the other, as golf architecture is much better off because both exist, I'd care little about which of the two courses I'd be playing if it guaranteed I got to play them with all of the terrific people I hung out with last weekend.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 03:11:12 AM by Connor Dougherty »
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

David Davis

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2015, 04:56:00 AM »
Connor, well said. It's really tough to judge purely on architectural merits, maybe impossible with all the love the treehouse affords Dismal - rightly so as the entire facility encompasses nearly everything we hold dear.


You wrote:


And I'll be very blunt about my potential prejudices: I played the best round of my life at Sand Hills.
[/size][/color]
[/size]I can appreciate this as I too had my best round ever at Sand Hills (so the course must just be plain easy [/color] ;) [/size]) and was playing with a great group of guys. I enjoyed the course but playing most of my golf on links courses just struggle to see how it can be seen as superior to any of the great links in UK and I with one exception, it's in the middle of the country and on sand based soil (middle of nowhere) and that's incredibly unique for the US market. I've tried and I just can't for the life of me figure out how it could be seen as better than say Pacific Dunes.[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]Dismal on the other hand has all the things you mentioned and perhaps to it's disadvantage the only rounds I played there were with extreme back pain after putting a vertebrae out of place. (lucky it was hot, or I wouldn't of been able to swing a damn club). I also let down Eric who was counting on me as a good partner to bring home the Cup (sorry Eric). Yet still I loved the courses, felt like Chris was my big brother and stuffed myself like a pig. Architecturally felt the Doak course was far better and far more natural though I wasn't blown away as most seem to be. Again, here I have to admit having an extreme hatred of horse flies and wearing full rain gear and a wool had just to survive on the last stretch tainted my view enough to know I need to get back there, be healthy and give it another go.[/color]

[/size]On the positive side, I can still remember nearly every hole on the Doak course as well. That says a lot in and of itself. No two alike and a great mix of variety. Basically it has everything, including a great flow. Still, to compare no way I can put it ahead of or even near Pacific Dunes. Personal bias perhaps.[/color]
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Adam Clayman

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2015, 08:04:48 AM »
The greatest aspect about Dismal River is it's 180 degree turnaround from it's origins. Both architecturally, and the individuals involved.

If that's the new standard for greatness than YES, it does set a new standard.

What other club/course went from one extreme to another, in a positive direction?

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike Hendren

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2015, 10:13:25 AM »
I haven't played Tom's course at Dismal - only walked it with the other sheep a couple of years ago.  I have no trouble with anyone opining that it's in the same ballpark as Sand Hills - maybe a little better, maybe not quite as good.
 
That said, the title reeks of hyperbole, unless someone can build a very compelling case for the contention.  So far, all I gather is that the tuna was great.  In fact, I doubt there is any such standard out there.  Heck, I'd split ten rounds 5/5 between Sand Hills and Walton Heath.  Then again, what do I know?  I have Sand Hills 8th in my top 100.
 
First Matt Ginella vastly subordinates Pebble Beach to Cabot Links and now this thread.  Whatever happened to tried and true?
 
My pal Vince Gill sang it best:  Big guitars, diamond rings, everybody's crazy 'bout the next big thing..
 
FWIW I can't wait to get back to Dismal and actually tee it up.
 
Bogey
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 10:45:56 AM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Terry Lavin

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2015, 10:23:56 AM »
The greatest aspect about Dismal River is it's 180 degree turnaround from it's origins. Both architecturally, and the individuals involved.

If that's the new standard for greatness than YES, it does set a new standard.

What other club/course went from one extreme to another, in a positive direction?

This is a great point.  I'll take a slightly different spin and say that Medinah acted very much against type when it chose Doak for its Course One renovation.  We're not talking extremes meaning bad course to revolutionary new course, but we are talking two diametrically opposed approaches to the golf experience.  Course Three is an outright brute, with demanding shots off pretty much every tee and into pretty much every green.  It is monomaniacally tough, relentless and dispiriting at times.  The word fun doesn't often get used in analyzing this course.  The Doak track, contrarily, is playful, quirky, fresh and fun.  It can be set up to make it difficult or not so difficult.  It gives the player options off the tee and into many greens.  It challenges the player with the smaller clubs and doesn't beat you over the head with a bunch of demanding long shots.  Doak introduced the word fun back into Medinah.  I played there again last week.  We got around in 3:45 and the Oasis bar was full of smiling faces.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Daryl David

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2015, 04:02:22 PM »
What other club/course went from one extreme to another, in a positive direction?


Good question. I can't think of one. Only one that went in a negative direction.  :-\

Doug Siebert

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2015, 04:31:22 PM »
Dismal on the other hand has all the things you mentioned and perhaps to it's disadvantage the only rounds I played there were with extreme back pain after putting a vertebrae out of place. (lucky it was hot, or I wouldn't of been able to swing a damn club). I also let down Eric who was counting on me as a good partner to bring home the Cup (sorry Eric). Yet still I loved the courses, felt like Chris was my big brother and stuffed myself like a pig. Architecturally felt the Doak course was far better and far more natural though I wasn't blown away as most seem to be. Again, here I have to admit having an extreme hatred of horse flies and wearing full rain gear and a wool had just to survive on the last stretch tainted my view enough to know I need to get back there, be healthy and give it another go.


I do hope you make it back, it was great playing Sand Hills with you and seeing anyone playing one of their life's best rounds is always a treat, enough to make me forget I certainly was not doing the same!  I never seem to find time to play much before my trips to Dismal, so I always end up improving by about 10 shots from my first round to my last. Maybe I should take the whole week off next year so I'm firing on all cylinders on Thursday instead waiting until Sunday as is typical...

The deer flies seem to have been a lot fewer the last couple years.  I'm not one that seems to get bitten by anything very often, but that first year the Doak was open they were BAD, I was driven crazy even after spraying down everywhere.  Probably made worse by the fact that I'm not used to dealing with insects that want to bite me - usually if I stand close enough to someone else they'll go bite that person instead  ;) The last two years I haven't used spray at all, and I had only one bite the whole trip (and I'm pretty sure it was while I was sitting in the dark with the cows next to the overturned Ranger nursing my smushed foot and trying to talk down Barry from looking at his arm and getting shocky)  I doubt you'd have wear full rain gear again if you return!

I'm not going to comment on the Sand Hills vs Dismal Red because I readily admit it is too hard to separate the hype for Sand Hills from the hype for the Red in my mind and get down to the architecture, and separate the courses from the huge difference in experience I had at the two places.  Sand Hills may fit the expectation of those who prefer a more traditional club experience better than Dismal River, but the latter is exactly the sort of laid back experience that appeals to a Gen X slacker like me!  ;D So to be honest, even if Dismal only had the White which I think nearly everyone would agree is not up to the level of Sand Hills I'd visit there 9 times out of 10 versus Sand Hills because of the atmosphere, CJ, Chef Eric and all the rest.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Connor Dougherty

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2015, 04:56:37 PM »
David,
I wouldn't disagree with too much of what you said and I seem to recall you mentioning similar things during the 5th Major two years ago. Going back to review my post on Tom Doak's "Rank My Courses" thread, I noticed that I had Dismal behind Cape Kidnappers, Pac Dunes, Barnbougle, and Ballyneal (and Sheep Ranch, which may have been a personal response just as much as it was a logical one, one which I was significantly criticized for). I wouldn't go as far as saying that Pacific is far better than Sand Hills, but I certainly think they're on similar, if not equal, footing.


However, I think the biggest issue is people have the wrong expectation of Sand Hills going there. Based on what I had heard from people who played there at other times and my one experience there, I'm convinced that the sandy soil at Sand Hills is more conducive to the springy turf that we get here on the California Coast (at least prior to the drought), which makes the courses play somewhere between links tracks and the inland courses on less ideal soil. I found myself viewing the different features with this in mind. Sand Hills asks for both the ground game and the aerial game, usually relying more on the former. I'm still thankful I played with someone who understood the course, as some of the features, many of which I surely missed still, are so subtle that it's difficult to recognize them without them being mentioned. The slight mound fronting the 16th green, something I was completely oblivious to until my host pointed it out, is a terrific example of this.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 05:09:31 PM by Connor Dougherty »
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Keith OHalloran

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2015, 05:04:58 PM »
I am not going to comment on the architecture, I will follow Sam's lead in that regard.  I have been to Dismal and had a great time, CJ is a great host as is Eric, and I look forward to going back in September. That being said, I am very surprised when someone does not like the atmosphere at Sand Hills. I have been there several times, and part of the allure for me is the people who work there. I have always felt a very warm welcome from everyone at Sand Hills, almost as if you were being allowed into their homes. I think that attitude helps with the relaxed and laid back feel that seems so appropriate in the middle of the hills.
There are different strokes for different folks, but I love everything about Sand Hills, and that includes the atmosphere.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2015, 05:47:42 PM »
I had great experiences at both places. Unforgettable in many ways.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Matt Glore

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2015, 07:44:58 PM »
I have been to Dismal and had a great time, CJ is a great host as is Eric.
That being said, I am very surprised when someone does not like the atmosphere at Sand Hills. I have been there, and part of the allure for me is the people who work there. I have always felt a very warm welcome from everyone at Sand Hills, almost as if you were being allowed into their homes. I think that attitude helps with the relaxed and laid back feel that seems so appropriate in the middle of the hills.
There are different strokes for different folks, but I love everything about Sand Hills, and that includes the atmosphere.
Keith, I cut down your quote to my experiences at both courses.  Before the 5th Major this year, Dismal (both courses) was the #1 place I've played that I wanted to get back to for another go.  I only played 32 holes on the Red this year.  I agree with Conner on the few holes that felt awkward on the Red, and I could add 11.  The views are outstanding playing towards or along the large hill. 
When comparing it to Sand Hills the course, I would play SH 8 to 2.  Sand Hills is the best course I've ever visited.  The par 4s are the best set of 4s I'll probably ever play.  The greens at Sand Hills are my favorite.  Perfect slope and size for each hole length hole.  [size=78%]  [/size]

Tom_Doak

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2015, 10:08:50 PM »
As Mr. Keiser taught me to say, re: comparisons between Pacific Dunes and Pebble Beach, it is an honor just to be in the same conversation as Sand Hills as to which is the better course OR the better experience.


Sand Hills (as with Pebble Beach) has the advantage of being the defending champion, and as with heavyweight fights, you can't take the belt away unless you knock out the holder.  That's hard to do when Sand Hills is a 10 in my book, and there is no 11.  [Pebble is only a 9, so I feel I have a better chance of winning the Pebble vs. Pacific bout, at least in some people's minds.  For others, Pebble is their all-time favorite, and there is no chance of competing.]

Doug Siebert

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2015, 11:25:26 PM »
I am not going to comment on the architecture, I will follow Sam's lead in that regard.  I have been to Dismal and had a great time, CJ is a great host as is Eric, and I look forward to going back in September. That being said, I am very surprised when someone does not like the atmosphere at Sand Hills. I have been there several times, and part of the allure for me is the people who work there. I have always felt a very warm welcome from everyone at Sand Hills, almost as if you were being allowed into their homes. I think that attitude helps with the relaxed and laid back feel that seems so appropriate in the middle of the hills.
There are different strokes for different folks, but I love everything about Sand Hills, and that includes the atmosphere.


Sand Hills felt a lot more formal and stuffy to me (I know I know, some of the really traditional clubs in Chicago and out east raise stuffiness to an art form and SH can't even be mentioned in the same breath, but it is stuffier than what I'd prefer) The people working there were nice as can be, that was certainly not an issue, but the members really kept to themselves and didn't have anything to do with us. Maybe that's because we were unaccompanied being "guests of Dick Youngscap" but you'd think out of a whole dining room full of people one person would see a table of unfamiliar faces and stop by and say hi. The social aspect of the firepit at DR versus everyone quickly retiring to their rooms after dinner at SH can't be underestimated as a major factor in the social aspect.

Maybe I'd have a different experience on a return visit, or if I was with a member, but everything about the experience just seemed a lot more formal to me at SH. That will be seen as a positive by some, but is a negative to me. Like you say, different strokes for different folks.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Sam Morrow

Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2015, 11:38:44 PM »
What I think is awesome is that 11, 15, and 17 have all been mentioned as least favorite holes. Those, 9, and 16 were my favorites.

David Davis

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2015, 06:48:42 AM »

Sand Hills felt a lot more formal and stuffy to me (I know I know, some of the really traditional clubs in Chicago and out east raise stuffiness to an art form and SH can't even be mentioned in the same breath, but it is stuffier than what I'd prefer) The people working there were nice as can be, that was certainly not an issue, but the members really kept to themselves and didn't have anything to do with us. Maybe that's because we were unaccompanied being "guests of Dick Youngscap" but you'd think out of a whole dining room full of people one person would see a table of unfamiliar faces and stop by and say hi. The social aspect of the firepit at DR versus everyone quickly retiring to their rooms after dinner at SH can't be underestimated as a major factor in the social aspect.

Maybe I'd have a different experience on a return visit, or if I was with a member, but everything about the experience just seemed a lot more formal to me at SH. That will be seen as a positive by some, but is a negative to me. Like you say, different strokes for different folks.


Doug,


it's interesting how different perspectives can be drawn from the same experience. I can recognize what you mean but I think I just felt differently about it. I thought the atmosphere at Sand Hills was great and extremely laid back. the staff and everyone were incredibly friendly and let's face it Mr. Youngscap was so generous as to let us even set foot at the place. I think you are simply living in a much friendlier part of the world than I am - in fact I know you are. However, there is no way to compare the atmosphere at Dismal with that which we experienced at Sand Hills. Unless you can invite 50-100 of your tree-house brethren to Sand Hills and have your go at it in the same way. It has to be "one of" the biggest boyz getaways, pilgrimages if you like, there is...period!


I think we have to keep in mind that Sand Hills is far away from everything and the members that were there were on their couple times a year trips with close friends they may or may not see all the time, they could of been there with business guests as well. We don't know so it's just not the same to expect that they share the moment in the same way the guys do at Dismal. ...and for the record it's not Australia which in my experience blows away any kind of hospitality we can drum up in the good ole US of A - love it as I might. In any case I can't tell ye all how much friendlier even the most to themselves of the private club golfers are than here in continental Europe on average.



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Adam Clayman

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2015, 07:40:36 AM »
Judge, Thanks for bringing up Medinah. A great example of an architectural "about face".
Similar to the many changes made on Jack's course here in KneeBrassKey (where the N stands for knowledge) taking the concept of fun out of the original funeral march.

Doug, When did you visit SH?

Daryl, I must be going through some life change, I never thought of the negative direction courses/clubs, other than there must be a lot of them.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 08:50:57 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Keith OHalloran

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2015, 08:04:10 AM »
Doug,
The owner granted you access to an exclusive club, the staff was nice as can be, but the members (who have their own guests out) did not come say hello at dinner?  For shame  ;D ;D
Just kidding, I know there are two different vibes at the clubs, and I am sure that is intentional. I just happen to really love both.

Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: Dismal Doak, The New Standard of Greatness?
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2015, 10:29:47 AM »
I played nearly 6 rounds on the Doak course during the Hundred Hole Hike last week. I have a decent photographic memory and what I found was cool is that other than a few holes like #9,  I could never remember what the next hole coming up was, since the greens are framed by the dunes as you make your way from the green, up a hill, or around a corner until the next tee box is revealed. I'd get to the teeing area and have a "oh, that's right" moment. The sense of anticipation is excellent. I personally liked the blindness of #11 and #17. Favorite hole was #14 as the pin was front right and you could bank your approach shots off the giant mound.

On  Sand Hills membership - have never been there but upon getting nearer on 97 I saw a BMW 750il pulled to the side of the road. We slowed down to see if he was ok - turns out he was taking pictures of goats. I thought maybe he was part of the 5th Major group departing that Sunday. I asked if he was coming back from Dismal River? He said "No, Sand Hills. Never go to Dismal River" - somewhat in a dismissive tone. Bad blood there, or just an air of superiority?

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