Using the prevailing winds as a design element

[Patrick_Mucci]

I recently played a hole where there was a large bunker, tight to the green, tight to the bunker was tall Fescue rough.
 
The dominant/prevailing wind made any hole location on the left side of that green, extremely challenging.
 
While I'm a decent bunker player, short siding the approach into that bunker left you with a difficult recovery that's made far more difficult due to it's play down wind. 
 
Left of that bunker put you in high/dense Fescue, presenting an extremely difficult recovery over the bunker, to a short sided pin, down wind.
 
The combination is diabolical, especially when you consider that the greens are maintained F&F.
 
And, if you bail out, away from the hole location, you're left with a difficult chip/pitch back toward the deep greenside bunker and if you are on the putting surface, chances are you have a very long and difficult two putt.
 
What are some good examples of the use of a moderate to strong prevailing wind ?

[Carl Nichols]

Sounds like a hard hole.  But if you bail out to the right/long, aren't you left with a pitch that's also back into the wind?

[Doug Siebert]

I think this is pretty common, off the top of my head I can think of a few holes around here that were obviously designed with the prevailing wind in mind.  In particular a par 3 with water right where the prevailing wind is right to left.  When the pin is hard against the right edge of the green and a 20 mph wind is blowing (not at all uncommon at this course since there are few trees) you need to either aim out over the water or hit a major cut to get close...and be a little crazy to even try.  Most second shots are played from down the slope left of that green for obvious reasons.

[J Sadowsky]

I think this is pretty common, off the top of my head I can think of a few holes around here that were obviously designed with the prevailing wind in mind.  In particular a par 3 with water right where the prevailing wind is right to left.  When the pin is hard against the right edge of the green and a 20 mph wind is blowing (not at all uncommon at this course since there are few trees) you need to either aim out over the water or hit a major cut to get close...and be a little crazy to even try.  Most second shots are played from down the slope left of that green for obvious reasons.

I remember reading a review of the Rawls course in which the prevailing wind was the primary hazard and considered in the development of each hole.

[William_G]

sure seems that any decent designer would use the winds as a factor of the design

[Paul Gray]

The excellent and truly minimalist 5th at my home track, Hayling, comes to mind. It's 150 yards or so, depending on the tee, with a narrow, plateau green. The prevailing wind blows in from the left and the sole bunker is front left, meaning you frequently have to aim at the bunker, trust the wind will move it about three yards to the right and your ball will pitch right next to the sand and run on up the green. It is perfect simplicity itself.

[Tom_Doak]

I remember reading a review of the Rawls course in which the prevailing wind was the primary hazard and considered in the development of each hole.

That probably wasn't a review, but instead my original write-up of the course.  We definitely thought a lot about what holes to place in what wind directions there.  Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw are also BIG proponents of building holes where the wind helps you:  if they build a hole that favors a fade or a draw on the approach, you can bet the house that the prevailing wind is helping the required shot.


One thing I noticed about the National Golf Links of America is that Macdonald routed it so that the hole would play straight downwind in the prevailing SW wind ... and it's probably not a coincidence that the prevailing wind at North Berwick is straight behind you on the Redan, too.

[paul cowley]

Designing holes with the wind is fun...into the wind equally as challenging...crosswinds too! but the design is not complete unless you consider the un-prevailing wind days as well. If you can get the two to balance, especially at times when they reverse...you're good...maybe really good!

[Tom_Doak]

Designing holes with the wind is fun...into the wind equally as challenging...crosswinds too! but the design is not complete unless you consider the un-prevailing wind days as well. If you can get the two to balance, especially at times when they reverse...you're good...maybe really good!

Definitely true.


Crystal Downs has two prevailing winds that are dead opposite (north and south), which prepared me well for the winds at Bandon ... you can't consider either to be the gospel.  [Barnbougle turned out to be that way, too, although that's not what we were told going into it.]


For that reason, I tend to route more holes upwind and downwind than crosswind.  Crosswind goes really haywire when the wind turns on you ... plus, in places with very strong winds, you cannot build a hole wide enough for a 40-mph crosswind.  Seems like you didn't have many crosswind holes at Diamante, either, Paul ... or am I remembering that wrong? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

sure seems that any decent designer would use the winds as a factor of the design
 
Without a prevailing wind, that's almost impossible.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sounds like a hard hole. 
 
But if you bail out to the right/long, aren't you left with a pitch that's also back into the wind?
 
Pitching/chipping to a hole location with a deep bunker close behind it is an extremely intimidating shot, one most often left far short of the hole, leaving the golfer a medium to long putt.
 
In a recent playoff, not one golfer amongst the 10 out of 16, who went right/long, chipped/pitched to within 10 feet of the hole.
 
Theory is one thing, getting over the ball and executing the shot in reality is quite another.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I remember reading a review of the Rawls course in which the prevailing wind was the primary hazard and considered in the development of each hole.

That probably wasn't a review, but instead my original write-up of the course.  We definitely thought a lot about what holes to place in what wind directions there.  Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw are also BIG proponents of building holes where the wind helps you:  if they build a hole that favors a fade or a draw on the approach, you can bet the house that the prevailing wind is helping the required shot.
 
Tom, by helping you do you mean that the prevailing wind will assist with the approach by pushing the fade further right and the draw further left, for the righty ?



One thing I noticed about the National Golf Links of America is that Macdonald routed it so that the hole would play straight downwind in the prevailing SW wind ... and it's probably not a coincidence that the prevailing wind at North Berwick is straight behind you on the Redan, too.

[Mike_Young]

Wind is a huge design element on 12 at ANGC.  they claim a "venturi affect" coming down 13 and toward 11.

[John Kirk]

Wikipedia entry for "Venturi Effect":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect

I first heard that term when I was a sophomore in high school, and a classmate told me he had designed the Venturi effect into a pipe he built in metal shop. 

[Jon Cavalier]

Designing holes with the wind is fun...into the wind equally as challenging...crosswinds too! but the design is not complete unless you consider the un-prevailing wind days as well. If you can get the two to balance, especially at times when they reverse...you're good...maybe really good!

Definitely true.


Crystal Downs has two prevailing winds that are dead opposite (north and south), which prepared me well for the winds at Bandon ... you can't consider either to be the gospel.  [Barnbougle turned out to be that way, too, although that's not what we were told going into it.]


For that reason, I tend to route more holes upwind and downwind than crosswind.  Crosswind goes really haywire when the wind turns on you ... plus, in places with very strong winds, you cannot build a hole wide enough for a 40-mph crosswind.  Seems like you didn't have many crosswind holes at Diamante, either, Paul ... or am I remembering that wrong?

Tom:

Seems like you employed this to great effect at Pacific Dunes and Old Mac - 16 on Pac Dunes stands out in my mind as one clear example.

[paul cowley]

Designing holes with the wind is fun...into the wind equally as challenging...crosswinds too! but the design is not complete unless you consider the un-prevailing wind days as well. If you can get the two to balance, especially at times when they reverse...you're good...maybe really good!

Definitely true.


Crystal Downs has two prevailing winds that are dead opposite (north and south), which prepared me well for the winds at Bandon ... you can't consider either to be the gospel.  [Barnbougle turned out to be that way, too, although that's not what we were told going into it.]


For that reason, I tend to route more holes upwind and downwind than crosswind.  Crosswind goes really haywire when the wind turns on you ... plus, in places with very strong winds, you cannot build a hole wide enough for a 40-mph crosswind.  Seems like you didn't have many crosswind holes at Diamante, either, Paul ... or am I remembering that wrong?

Tom - yes you are remembering correctly. when we opened we only had 2 and 1/2 crosswind holes...12, 13 and the drive on 18. We finally finished and opened 2 new holes in mid March to replace 12 and 13. These holes are now oceanside of the primary dune. Unfortunately we had to open them last fall before they were finished as a consequence of Odile...our Cat 4 hurricane that visited last fall. They are now in their final form and playing well. The new 12 is a par 5 that first tacks left into a quartering wind, then tacks right, and the 3rd shot is directly into the wind. It might be the best hole out here. 13 is a short downwind par 4 that is reachable, especially when wind assisted.


Your post made me analyze how we dealt with the prevailing winds during routing and construction. As I'm sure you remember the Diamante Dunes course is built in a series of large of sand dunes and ridges with elevations of 150 high in places. Bold stuff that reminds me of a Ballybunion or even the Cashen course, but with desert vegetation instead of marram grass.The valleys between the ridges are narrow in many places. The prevailing strong winds, the ones that created the dune system, blow from NW to SE for 9 months, and then totally switch direction with more benign SE winds during our tropical 3 month season (except for last falls hurricane that had sustained winds in the 140's and reeked havoc with all of Cabo).


We only have 2 totally up wind holes...1 and 14...and 3 fully down wind holes...9, 10 and 13. The rest are a combination of varying degrees of quartering winds. The par 3's...2, 5, and 16 all quarter into the wind, while 7 and 11 (the one whose green you suggested might be a little small) quarter downwind (Tom made a pleasant site visit during construction). The other par 4's and 5's are a mix of holes that might start up or downwind but finish in a quartering direction...or vice versa. I've already mentioned our new 12th that tacks both ways, or 13, a par 4 that plays from a elevated tee upwind into a valley and the second shot plays from below, quartering left to an elevated green.


I've learned a lot over the past 8 years. We started out very timidly, not being sure of what might stay or blow away when disturbed. The new holes were much easier from experience...12 was 95% there and minimal in effort...the new 13 was 95% built by bulldozing one of the highest dunes ridges to make it look like we just found it there. That's what makes design the most fun...at least for me.

[archie_struthers]

 




When we built Twisted Dune I gave a lot of thought to what the prevailing winds would be . However there were none to really work off. It's a little different use five miles to the East along the shoreline.


Any architect would be wise to think long and hard about the presence or lack of a prevailing breeze in design . It's obvious you don't want a 450 yard uphill hole to play into a stout breeze all the time , etc ,etc etc, .


Good question !

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,


Aren't nearby airport runways the best indicator of prevailing winds ?

[Tom_Doak]

Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw are also BIG proponents of building holes where the wind helps you:  if they build a hole that favors a fade or a draw on the approach, you can bet the house that the prevailing wind is helping the required shot.
 
Tom, by helping you do you mean that the prevailing wind will assist with the approach by pushing the fade further right and the draw further left, for the righty ?

Yes, exactly.  Ben and I talked about that at length one day many years ago ... before either of us had designed a course on our own.  And Bill showed me how they put the idea to work at Kapalua, where there are strong prevailing winds.

[William_G]

sure seems that any decent designer would use the winds as a factor of the design
 
Without a prevailing wind, that's almost impossible.

where are there no prevailing winds?

[Doug Siebert]

Any architect would be wise to think long and hard about the presence or lack of a prevailing breeze in design . It's obvious you don't want a 450 yard uphill hole to play into a stout breeze all the time , etc ,etc etc, .

Is that really "obvious"? I suppose if you care about par as an indication of the expectation of a player's score, but there's always room for holes that ask to be played with a par+1 strategy, particularly if there are favorable short par 4s and 5s that make up for it.

The two courses I play the most have the most difficult holes to make par on without wind playing into the prevailing wind.  On one, the 9th is a par 4 with a strongly uphill tee shot that was recently stretched to about 480 from the tips to an angled fairway, and is still 425 from the regular men's tees.  On the other, the two longest par 5s of 552 and 565 yards.  The 16th is flat until the last 150 yards where it goes up, up, up and more up leaving a partially or fully blind third to a steeply sloped deep but very narrow green.  The 13th is roughly flat overall but has a nice rise the last 80 yards or so to a devilish multitier green with a frustratingly deep false front covering the left 3/4s of the 40 yard wide but quite shallow green.

[ward peyronnin]

Tom I also remember us standing dripping in Shinnecock clubhouse after a round and you perusing the framed blueprint routing on the wall. Your first comment was an appreciation that the bunkers had also primarily been positioned to take advantage of protection against the prevailing winter NorEaster winds and thereby reduce the scouring effect and sand replacement in addition to their strategic function.

[Patrick_Mucci]

sure seems that any decent designer would use the winds as a factor of the design
 
Without a prevailing wind, that's almost impossible.

where are there no prevailing winds?
 
Let's start at the 12th hole at ANGC, then head up to Pine Valley, and after that, we'll go to Twisted Dunes.
 
Did you also miss the last sentence of the opening post where I qualified the wind with the words:
"moderate to strong prevailing wind" ?  ?  ?

[Thomas Dai]

I've read that James Braid tried to route his par-3's each to a different point of the compass so they'd each play differently given the wind of the day, whatever that wind direction may be. Was he the first to do this?
Atb

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thomas,
 
I always felt that aligning the par 3's in different directions was an asset.
 
I don't know if Braid was the first to configure his par 3's accordingly, but, it certainly seems to make sense.