Great Golf Club---no Pool

[Terry Lavin]

In AZ: Desert Forest

In Philadelphia area: Merion, Pine Valley, Aronimink, Sunnybrook, Stonewall, French Creek, Commonwealth,  Hidden Creek, Galloway

I'd expect bad news from you, my friend. Like, "Pool Valley CC facing bankruptcy after diving board incident."

[Jim Nugent]

How about a pool table? Lots of respectable courses have pool tables.

Even more might have betting pools. 

I bet Rivermont doesn't have a swimming pool. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Add Gulph Mills in Philadelphia area and they're not in Chapter XI. 

[Declan Kavanagh]

Terry-  Is the pool definitely going to get shot down you think?

[Garland Bayley]

This may seem crazy to post on GCA -- but I love having a pool where I play golf! The summers might be short in Minnesota, but every once in a while it's pretty darn nice taking a couple of dives off the board and drinking a few bootleggers!

Shame on you Pat. Don't you know you shouldn't drink and dive.

[Sam Morrow]

I saw a pool at Aronimink I thought.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Sam,

You are correct about Amink. I'll edit my prior response.

[Keith OHalloran]

How about a pool table? Lots of respectable courses have pool tables.

Even more might have betting pools. 

I bet Rivermont doesn't have a swimming pool.

Yes it does. It is on your left when walking from 9 to 10.

[Jim Tang]

Black Sheep.

[Mark Pritchett]

Champions Retreat
Sage Valley
CCC

[Carl Nichols]

Burning Tree
Four Streams
Caves
RTJ
Kinloch

[Andrew Buck]

While I'd add Black Sheep to the Chicago list, If we analyze this further.

How many great Golf Clubs are their without a pool that don't meet one of the following 2 criteria:

1)  More than 50% of the membership is members at multiple clubs, including one with a pool.

2)  Located somewhere like the hamptons, where the family is already at the beach and would have no need for a pool.

[Mark Pritchett]

Also need to define "Great Golf Club". 

[Terry Lavin]

While I'd add Black Sheep to the Chicago list, If we analyze this further.

How many great Golf Clubs are their without a pool that don't meet one of the following 2 criteria:

1)  More than 50% of the membership is members at multiple clubs, including one with a pool.

2)  Located somewhere like the hamptons, where the family is already at the beach and would have no need for a pool.

All male clubs typically don't go for pools.  National clubs seldom have a real need.  But, as we see from the above courses listed, there are a fair number of golf clubs that don't want to be country clubs and other country clubs that have slowly segued into golf clubs as the dominant culture/demographic in the club changes over time.  That's what is happening at Beverly.  When I joined in 1987, there was a big local membership, perhaps as much as 60% of the total.  Now that is more like 10% and those tend to be older members whose kids have moved out of the house and out of the neighborhood.  The pool is old, crumbling and not used all that often.  It's little more than an out of bounds water hazard.  On a typical weekday, you might see a handful of swimmers.  On a typical weekend, you might see 20 all day.  The same seems to be true of our restaurant operation.  Over the years, business has gone down appreciably and I would venture to say that 90% of the member meals served are related to golf.  It is what it is as they like to say and it is not likely to change.  "Re-build it and they won't come," is my phrase that pays.

[Paul Jones]

You are better off naming the great clubs with a pool: Seminole (no one ever uses), Oakmont? Fishers Island?

[Terry Lavin]

You are better off naming the great clubs with a pool: Seminole (no one ever uses), Oakmont? Fishers Island?

This is a fun one, too, and I take that as a friendly amendment, not a threadjack!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Whispering Pines and most on the other sides of respective PONDS

[Mark Pritchett]

Aiken Golf Club
Palmetto
Musgrove Mill

Aiken GC removed their pool a few years ago. 

[Andrew Buck]

 
All male clubs typically don't go for pools.  National clubs seldom have a real need.  But, as we see from the above courses listed, there are a fair number of golf clubs that don't want to be country clubs and other country clubs that have slowly segued into golf clubs as the dominant culture/demographic in the club changes over time.  That's what is happening at Beverly.  When I joined in 1987, there was a big local membership, perhaps as much as 60% of the total.  Now that is more like 10% and those tend to be older members whose kids have moved out of the house and out of the neighborhood.  The pool is old, crumbling and not used all that often.  It's little more than an out of bounds water hazard.  On a typical weekday, you might see a handful of swimmers.  On a typical weekend, you might see 20 all day.  The same seems to be true of our restaurant operation.  Over the years, business has gone down appreciably and I would venture to say that 90% of the member meals served are related to golf.  It is what it is as they like to say and it is not likely to change.  "Re-build it and they won't come," is my phrase that pays.

I think that is the heart of the answer.  It is very club specific, and after you get past the true elites, it depends on the nature of the membership and the location.  As Beverly has transitioned from a "neighborhood" club within a changing neighborhood, to the "best golf course" at a club with easy access to downtown, it would make sense that the club would no longer have use for the pool, and it's actually a burden to the changing membership.  At some clubs, risking losing 20% of their members that have families using the pool is a losing proposition, at others, it's an opportunity to bring in new members that have the same interest in a club as the majority.  On the other side of the coin, and although it's not a "traditional" country club, Pinehurst just added a new members pool by the main clubhouse that was packed with kids and families when we were there.

A quick look at golfweek classics show 70% of the top 20 don't have a pool, with most of those either being national type clubs, or in locations that have beach cultures (Hamptons/LA).  As you move to the next 20 (like The CC, Oakland Hills, Philly Cricket, etc), it moves closer to 50/50 and as you move down pools are more prevalent.

Now, as for dining, it clearly is a losing proposition long term as memberships diversify within generations.  An amenity like a pool can attract members at many clubs, because it provides a family with an amenity that they may not otherwise have available to them.  Dining options are quite simply abundant in almost all areas, and often can specialize in providing a much better experience than a club can offer.  There is a comfort of dining with people you know, and some times a convenience of dining where you golf, but I suspect dining offerings will need to continue to evolve for many years.

[Jim Hoak]

You ask for a list of great courses without swimming pools.  I'd turn it around and ask for great ones with pools.  I'd think there are very few.
Let me ask a related question.  In these current times, I hear of some great clubs that are struggling with attracting young members because they don't have other facilities--pools, tennis courts, etc.  In these economic times, it is often difficult for these young families to join two clubs, so they compromise on the quality of golf in order to support their wife and kids.
True?  A growing issue?

[Doug Spets]

Aiken Golf Club
Palmetto
Musgrove Mill

Aiken GC removed their pool a few years ago.

I know.  That's why I put them on this list

[J_ Crisham]

You ask for a list of great courses without swimming pools.  I'd turn it around and ask for great ones with pools.  I'd think there are very few.
Let me ask a related question.  In these current times, I hear of some great clubs that are struggling with attracting young members because they don't have other facilities--pools, tennis courts, etc.  In these economic times, it is often difficult for these young families to join two clubs, so they compromise on the quality of golf in order to support their wife and kids.
True?  A growing issue?

Jim,    You ask for a list of great courses with pools: Oakmont,  Chicago Golf Club, Milwaukee CC, Myopia, Oakland Hills, Olympia Fields, Medinah, Prairie Dunes, The Olympic Club, Pebble Beach, Inverness, Canterbury, Aronimink, Cherry Hills, Champions, I could keep going. My personal choice is to have a pool- but that is because I have kids who enjoy swimming at Beverly.

[Andrew Buck]

Let me ask a related question.  In these current times, I hear of some great clubs that are struggling with attracting young members because they don't have other facilities--pools, tennis courts, etc.  In these economic times, it is often difficult for these young families to join two clubs, so they compromise on the quality of golf in order to support their wife and kids.
True?  A growing issue?

I suspect this has little impact on the elite clubs, but if you go down a step to good golf courses, I would think it happens.  I would suspect their are plenty of guys who are members at Crystal Lake CC in Illinois that would prefer to play Bull Valley, or at Bridgewater Club north of Indy that would prefer to play Wolf Run, however family considerations keep them at the "amenity" clubs. 

Of course, the absence of such amenities is a plus to many as well, which is fine as long as there are enough like-minded individuals with the means to carry the nut.

[Carl Nichols]

Let me ask a related question.  In these current times, I hear of some great clubs that are struggling with attracting young members because they don't have other facilities--pools, tennis courts, etc.  In these economic times, it is often difficult for these young families to join two clubs, so they compromise on the quality of golf in order to support their wife and kids.
True?  A growing issue?

I suspect this has little impact on the elite clubs, but if you go down a step to good golf courses, I would think it happens.  I would suspect their are plenty of guys who are members at Crystal Lake CC in Illinois that would prefer to play Bull Valley, or at Bridgewater Club north of Indy that would prefer to play Wolf Run, however family considerations keep them at the "amenity" clubs. 

Of course, the absence of such amenities is a plus to many as well, which is fine as long as there are enough like-minded individuals with the means to carry the nut.

Sounds like it depends on the area you're talking about.  Here in DC, of the 10+ clubs that are in my general vicinity [NW DC/close-in Montgomery County/Arlington/McLean], only one (Burning Tree) has no pool, and that's sui generis.  There just aren't golf only clubs in this part of DC.

[Terry Lavin]

JCrisham:  You wrote:
 
Jim,    You ask for a list of great courses with pools: Oakmont,  Chicago Golf Club, Milwaukee CC, Myopia, Oakland Hills, Olympia Fields, Medinah, Prairie Dunes, The Olympic Club, Pebble Beach, Inverness, Canterbury, Aronimink, Cherry Hills, Champions, I could keep going. My personal choice is to have a pool- but that is because I have kids who enjoy swimming at Beverly.

 
I like having a pool, too.  That's why I just joined another club that has a pool.  It also has people who swim in it.  And it has restaurants where families regularly dine.  It comes down to an analysis of usage and where to direct the members' money.  If you have a 80 year old pool that gets anemic visitation and an 80 year old maintenance facility that services a course that accommodates 12K rounds or more per year, I think I know what the overwhelming majority of the membership would want, but I'm often wrong, even if seldom in doubt.  That's why clubs vote on this stuff.