Unnecessary compromises at Chambers Bay

[Steve_Lovett]

With the former sand and gravel quarry creating a blank canvas, it seems inexcusable that there are so many compromises for a facility that from the start had US Open aspirations?


Based on several plays and many friends who attended this week's Open, it's full of compromises. The arrival parking - to clubhouse - to starter- to range - to first tee is awkward. The length of the overall walk and distance between many holes are worse than you'll find at many subdivision golf courses. The fact that the 9th hole of a major championship was played from a tee that never originally existed 3 out of 4 days. The fact that it was a difficult and semi-dangerous spectator layout - impossible to follow groups and over-packed circulation patterns.


I love the golf course and despite the complaints about the turfgrass I thought it produced a great tournament. But - is there another major championship course that has as many built-in compromises? And with a new facility shouldn't these have been avoided? Does anyone think a major renovation will be undertaken to address these issues? 

[Garland Bayley]

... The length of the overall walk and distance between many holes are worse than you'll find at many subdivision golf courses. ...

Pure Bunk!

[David Kelly]

How many walking-only courses has RTJII and his group built?  Maybe they didn't really understand what it takes to make a course walkable.  And by walkable I don't mean capable of being walked, I mean suitable for being played only by walkers.

[Garland Bayley]

How many walking-only courses has RTJII and his group built?  Maybe they didn't really understand what it takes to make a course walkable.  And by walkable I don't mean capable of being walked, I mean suitable for being played only by walkers.

It is easily as walkable as Bandon Trails. Would you suggest C&C don't know how to do courses suitable for being played only by walkers?

[David Kelly]

How many walking-only courses has RTJII and his group built?  Maybe they didn't really understand what it takes to make a course walkable.  And by walkable I don't mean capable of being walked, I mean suitable for being played only by walkers.

It is easily as walkable as Bandon Trails. Would you suggest C&C don't know how to do courses suitable for being played only by walkers?

To address your reductive strawman, there are many C&C courses that are eminently walkable and they have proven that they know how to build courses that are suitable for walking golfers.  C&C has shown repeatedly in their work that the walking golfer is a priority.


Bandon Trails is a tough walk routed through natural features and having walked the course during construction I can say that they did the best they could.  Had Bandon Trails been built on a flat gravel pit it would have ended up a far easier walk.

[Brent Carlson]

Chambers Bay is a challenging walk, but I don't find it unreasonable.  Our group typically plays in 3 hours 30, provided with an early tee time.  The rounds yesterday were surprisingly at 4 hours.  That's darn good for a US Open.

[Don Mahaffey]

I'm working on a project where the kid, Cole Hammer, is a member. Some of his friends traveled to CB to watch him in his big moment.
The spectator experience they described didn't sound good at all. They said it was impossible to follow a group. Couldn't even get a peek at #8, a hole with eagle possibilities; and had to walk way out of the way and work like hell to get a peak at #12, a drivable par 4.
I think the USGA took stadium design to a new level. Stadium means a new way of viewing golf; get a seat in the bleachers, don't circulate, just watch each group comes thru. Not a terrible way to watch a tournament, as long as you have a smart phone and don't have a favorite you'd like to follow.

[DMoriarty]

I really like Bandon Trails, but I think the difficult walk is a fair knock against it. They did the best they could, but it is nonetheless a tough walk, and the toughest of the bunch there. 

I can't comment on the walk at Chambers, but I don't think that its defenders are doing the reputation of the course any favors.

[Jason Topp]

I have not visited the course but the criticism of the spectator experience is the one that sounds most valid to me. 

[Tom_Doak]

I really like Bandon Trails, but I think the difficult walk is a fair knock against it. They did the best they could, but it is nonetheless a tough walk, and the toughest of the bunch there. 

I can't comment on the walk at Chambers, but I don't think that its defenders are doing the reputation of the course any favors.

Bandon Trails IS a difficult walk, but it was inevitable that they had to go up over the big ridge somewhere in the round.  Except for that, it's a reasonable walk.  At Chambers Bay much of the course is created, so the issue of walking difficulty was more of a choice by the architects.


That said, the couple of times I have looked at designing a course to host a big tournament, the client's list of essentials for tournament spectator viewing was a mile long, and pretty much insisted that holes be spaced far apart to enable freedom of movement by the galleries.  The way it's written, you would think that it must be impossible for any normal, walkable course to be tournament-friendly.


The issue at Chambers Bay is that it is NEITHER a good walk for the players NOR a good walk for the spectators.

[Terry Lavin]

I'm working on a project where the kid, Cole Hammer, is a member. Some of his friends traveled to CB to watch him in his big moment.
The spectator experience they described didn't sound good at all. They said it was impossible to follow a group. Couldn't even get a peek at #8, a hole with eagle possibilities; and had to walk way out of the way and work like hell to get a peak at #12, a drivable par 4.
I think the USGA took stadium design to a new level. Stadium means a new way of viewing golf; get a seat in the bleachers, don't circulate, just watch each group comes thru. Not a terrible way to watch a tournament, as long as you have a smart phone and don't have a favorite you'd like to follow.

This seems like an underreported aspect of this Open.

[Garland Bayley]

... Had Bandon Trails been built on a flat gravel pit it would have ended up a far easier walk.

The whole point of Chambers Bay was to not use the flat gravel pit. They used the terrain that was around the flat part explicitly excluding the boring flat terrain. So if you give Bandon Trails a pass, you have to give Chambers Bay the same pass. It just seems to me that Mike Keiser was smart enough to not give C&C the extremely flat portions of the property to build on. So are you blaming RTJ II for being as smart as Mike?

[David Ober]

I'm playing back-to-back rounds in September. I'm 6' and 280. If you don't hear from me by late September, assume I have perished....

[Garland Bayley]

I really like Bandon Trails, but I think the difficult walk is a fair knock against it. They did the best they could, but it is nonetheless a tough walk, and the toughest of the bunch there. 

I can't comment on the walk at Chambers, but I don't think that its defenders are doing the reputation of the course any favors.

So defending Chambers from people that haven't been there who are parroting nonsense from Greg Norman that it is a 10 mile hike walking down the center of the fairways is not doing the course any favors?


Unfortunately, people can't seem to figure out that it is impossible to walk over twice the length of the course by walking down the center of the fairways, otherwise they would be criticizing Greg Norman, and not the course.

[Garland Bayley]

I'm playing back-to-back rounds in September. I'm 6' and 280. If you don't hear from me by late September, assume I have perished....

David,


I have not worries about you. I'm over 300 and have done a 36 hole day there. And perhaps needless to say, my game takes me on more detours than yours does you.

[Garland Bayley]

...
The issue at Chambers Bay is that it is NEITHER a good walk for the players NOR a good walk for the spectators.

WOW. Never thought I would see that from you. When did you play the course?

[Steve Lang]

   Well it sure felt like more than a 5 mile walk, but definitely not 10... really only bad in some sections. 


...and I recommend to only carry 7 clubs...

[mike_beene]

It appears to me there are two or three green to tee walks over 200 yards? 3 to 4, 9 to 10 and 14 to 15 unless you cross the 11 fairway. Why would you design any course that way?

[Jeff Shelman]

I was out there on Monday and even with one of the smallest crowds of the week, it was clear it wasn't going to be a good spectator experience.

Following a group simply wasn't possible. The further away from the first tee you got the better things got in terms of seeing. The holes going east-west (4, 5, 13, 14, 15) were pretty easy to see. 1 and 10 were tough to see much on, 2 and 3 were OK, 8 obviously was impossible and that meant getting to 9 was hard. I didn't get to 17. 18 seemed challenging to see much unless you had a corporate ticket.

It wasn't impossible, but it wasn't easy to watch from non-grandstand spots.

[Tom_Doak]

...
The issue at Chambers Bay is that it is NEITHER a good walk for the players NOR a good walk for the spectators.

WOW. Never thought I would see that from you. When did you play the course?

Garland:


As I reported on another related thread, I have been there only once, and did not play the course.  I got a tour from the architect, Robert Trent Jones, Jr.  [He took a golf cart to get around and show me the course, FWIW.]


My comment that the course is "not a good walk" is based on the number of people who have commented on it, all of whom you have been arguing with about said subject.  The fact that it is "walkable" does not make it "a good walk".


Did you think my comment that the spectators had trouble walking it were off base, too?  The first article I happened to read about the Open this week, in the Globe & Mail, described Amy Mickelson's befuddlement as she tried to figure out how to follow her husband around the course.  She was stuck at the first tee asking officials where she could go.  And it's not exactly her first rodeo.

[Joe Stansell]

The issue at Chambers Bay is that it is NEITHER a good walk for the players NOR a good walk for the spectators.

I have played over 40 rounds at Chambers Bay and can agree that the walk here is more challenging than most "walkable" courses I have played. But like Garland I have also played 36 in a day at Chambers Bay and I'd say that the difference in the walk is marginally worse, not exceptionally worse. (The glorious view helps make up for this.)


I also attended every day of the US Open this week (both as a spectator and as a marshall) and can absolutely agree that it is poorly set up for spectators. Following a group for more than two or three hole stretches is essentially impossible, even during practice rounds when crowds are not as big of a problem. But even worse, the USGA provided way too few grandstand seats throughout the course, meaning that some people waited in line for hours -- yes, hours -- just to find a seat with a decent view of the action.


Terry Lavin is right. The problem with Chambers Bay as a US Open venue has more to do with how it handles spectators than it does with how it handles its greens. The USGA will need to fix this.

[DMoriarty]

So defending Chambers from people that haven't been there who are parroting nonsense from Greg Norman that it is a 10 mile hike walking down the center of the fairways is not doing the course any favors?

Unfortunately, people can't seem to figure out that it is impossible to walk over twice the length of the course by walking down the center of the fairways, otherwise they would be criticizing Greg Norman, and not the course.

I was referring to your defensive comments to those who have played the course and enjoyed the course but nonetheless have commented that it was a difficult and awkward walk. It seems as if you take any sort of non-glowing comment or critique as a personal affront.

[Steve_Lovett]

... The length of the overall walk and distance between many holes are worse than you'll find at many subdivision golf courses. ...

Pure Bunk!

I've been there and played it. I love the golf course but it's absolutely true in places.


Again - If you have a blank canvas why would you choose to have two walks in excess of 200-yards from green to tee? Why would you choose to create such an awkward arrival sequence between clubhouse, starter, practice range? If you want a major tournament why wouldn't you choose to create at least an adequate (and safe) spectator experience?


What was gained by choosing these compromises?

[Garland Bayley]

...
The issue at Chambers Bay is that it is NEITHER a good walk for the players NOR a good walk for the spectators.

WOW. Never thought I would see that from you. When did you play the course?

Garland:


As I reported on another related thread, I have been there only once, and did not play the course.  I got a tour from the architect, Robert Trent Jones, Jr.  [He took a golf cart to get around and show me the course, FWIW.]


My comment that the course is "not a good walk" is based on the number of people who have commented on it, all of whom you have been arguing with about said subject.  The fact that it is "walkable" does not make it "a good walk".


Did you think my comment that the spectators had trouble walking it were off base, too?  The first article I happened to read about the Open this week, in the Globe & Mail, described Amy Mickelson's befuddlement as she tried to figure out how to follow her husband around the course.  She was stuck at the first tee asking officials where she could go.  And it's not exactly her first rodeo.

I have no problem with it being characterized as bad for spectators, because the out of play dunes are steep, and dangerous for the non sherpa group.


However, I consider it a good walk to play golf. Coming from a club named Orchard Hills, which actually has hills, perhaps I am just more conditioned to walking uphill golf holes. I also consider Bandon Trails to be a good walk to play golf. Black Mesa starts to cross the line for me.


Most of my arguing about the walk has been against the idea that it is a 10 or 11 mile walk to play.

[Garland Bayley]

So defending Chambers from people that haven't been there who are parroting nonsense from Greg Norman that it is a 10 mile hike walking down the center of the fairways is not doing the course any favors?

Unfortunately, people can't seem to figure out that it is impossible to walk over twice the length of the course by walking down the center of the fairways, otherwise they would be criticizing Greg Norman, and not the course.

I was referring to your defensive comments to those who have played the course and enjoyed the course but nonetheless have commented that it was a difficult and awkward walk. It seems as if you take any sort of non-glowing comment or critique as a personal affront.

Please point me to such a post. I can't find one.