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Carl Rogers

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Exciting?
Controversial course set-up?
Disappointing?
Bad Course conditioning?
Fox debut teething pains?
A refreshing change from the standard?
Spieth, the new savior of the game?
 
 
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Wade Whitehead

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2015, 08:16:47 AM »
The tournament was thrilling, no doubt, but Fox's coverage was so awful is was a distraction.

WW

Jim Franklin

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2015, 08:21:59 AM »
FOX was awful.

The greens were a joke. Too bad they could not get a smooth putting surface for our national championship. The rest of the course was fantastic.
Mr Hurricane

Terry Lavin

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2015, 08:25:13 AM »
It will be cherished in the PAC NW. It will be panned by many TV viewers. It will be viewed as a positive by the USGA, with only internal self doubting of whether the course was ready enough agronomically to host a major. But most of all, it will be remembered as Dustin Johnson's latest Waterloo. Great theater with bad grass.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Kavanaugh

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2015, 08:29:44 AM »
It will be seen as that moment when golf decided to throw out the Tiger proofing and shorten up courses so the good guys can win.

RJ_Daley

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2015, 09:14:09 AM »
Remembered as exciting finish on a new sort of course for USGA standards, with some glitches.  But, the glitches and carping about the turf on greens will soon be noise fading in the distance, and Spieth's performance will be most remembered for establishing him as a new top golf professional and leader to the future of the game.
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John Connolly

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2015, 09:20:56 AM »
"Great theater with bad grass."


Terry Lavin




It was great theater made better with bad grass. It was like watching Lord Grantham eat beef Wellington with his hands.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 09:49:28 AM by John Connolly »
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2015, 09:28:13 AM »
Exciting?
Controversial course set-up?
Disappointing?
Bad Course conditioning?
Fox debut teething pains?
A refreshing change from the standard?
Spieth, the new savior of the game?

The verdict:  Hazeltine.

Meaning that they will bring RTJII (or Jay Blasi) back, tweak the course, and have another Open in about 30 years?

BTW, I think the overall verdict will be positive.  Results were good, Pac NW deserves an Open every dozen years or so.  Not too many course complaints, out of the ordinary for a tournament course, and the grass can be improved a bit.  Some stuff may get modified for spectators.  But why would anyone remember these course complaints any more than the other annual course complaints at the US Open?

Not to mention, the USGA will still be pushing water reductions, etc., and go on the offensive as saying this is just what golf needs, and we are providing it.  They won't admit to being wrong (and weren't) and won't feel offended by having learned from their experience here.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 09:32:28 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil McDade

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2015, 09:37:03 AM »
I think they will wait until the ratings come in. The USGA's Davis cares more about money than golf, and while there is much to criticize about the course and especially the set-up gimmicks, there was some great theater and drama Sunday (particularly compared to Pinehurst and Congressional), and I imagine the prime-time ratings will be pretty strong. Thus -- with some changes in the greens -- I think CBay sees another Open within 10-15 years, maybe sooner. (This is all assuming Davis stays in his current job; should he be fired be forced to retire leave, that could change; he's clearly CBay biggest booster among those who count.)

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2015, 09:53:12 AM »
Exciting?  - Yes
Controversial course set-up?  - Yes
Disappointing?  - See below
Bad Course conditioning?  -Yes
Fox debut teething pains?  - Yes, maybe they should get implants
A refreshing change from the standard?  - No
Spieth, the new savior of the game?  - Not yet
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2015, 11:22:15 AM »
For Spieth's win, giving him the first two legs of the Slam. 

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2015, 11:41:50 AM »
"The guys who missed putts misread the break in the dirt" - Dan Jenkins

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2015, 11:46:26 AM »
For Spieth's win, giving him the first two legs of the Slam.


Absolutely.


This was huge drama and it will overshadow all the other issues and storylines in people's minds. High drama, DJ 3-putting to lose, Speith getting half way to the slam.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2015, 12:20:21 PM »
Quote
Meaning that they will bring RTJII (or Jay Blasi) back, tweak the course, and have another Open in about 30 years?

BTW, I think the overall verdict will be positive.  Results were good, Pac NW deserves an Open every dozen years or so.  Not too many course complaints, out of the ordinary for a tournament course, and the grass can be improved a bit.  Some stuff may get modified for spectators.  But why would anyone remember these course complaints any more than the other annual course complaints at the US Open?

Not to mention, the USGA will still be pushing water reductions, etc., and go on the offensive as saying this is just what golf needs, and we are providing it.  They won't admit to being wrong (and weren't) and won't feel offended by having learned from their experience here.

I tend to agree Jeff, except if RTJjr can come back in even  years, I want what ever he is drinking, not withstanding his old man lived a pretty long life.  Hell, Blasi will be that age in 30!  ;) ;D

They will need to tweak the fescue slopes so spectators don't fall and kill themselves.  That was a big thing when Whistling Straits held its first major with crowds on the slippery slopes.  But, we have to remember the compromise in the design to give use and access to park walkers within the confines of the course so that general public wasn't excluded from this beautiful public park setting, even if he don't golf. 

Giving all these parameters to the design architect with the notion of holding a new sort of standard USGA event, on a freakin sand mine gypsum facility was not exactly easy peasy. 

And Phil, to say all MD cares about is the gate and money receipts, well in this age of mass marketing and media ratings along with merchandising every aspect of the event from tee shirts to logo sponsors, how else would a national and international rules and governance organization approach the financial issue?  On this scale, pure not-for-profit organization don't cut it, IMHO.  Sure, the USGA can dial down the marketting meter for their other multitude of events from US Ams men and women, to mid-ams to pub links (have they scrapped that one?) etc.   But the ladies and men's national open has to carry the other stuff they do from the library and archives that some of our GCA historians love and have contributed to, to the kids programs, etc. 

I think we need to cut these USGA guys a break.  The responded to some loud voices crying for change from the 'shlog' of narrow fairways-insane high thick rough.  They changed the Pinehurst presentation using some of our darlings of C&C to do a relatively faithful restoration of the fairway-waste needles areas.  What the hell do we want from a large org with board of directors, mostly made up of long time country club VIPs who are accustomed to all the cultural traditions of the country club set.  That is not necessarily a pejorative.  Just a consideration to what is 'standard' values and traditions that go into staffing the national ruling body BOD.  Remember when Geoff Shack had an ongoing set of grievances with the Manhattan property purchase and the criticism of the USGA over spending money on pretentious trappings.  Then, the criticism they should manage finances better and develop a war chest to enforce and push back on costly expected legal action threats by club manufacturers to force restraint on distance.  There is just too many masters to serve and issues and fires to put out to satisfy the critics. 

I for one don't think the USGA is 'ruining' golf.  I'm cutting them a break and let them post mortem and adjust. 

Let's see what they do when they get past the traditional staid old venue next year at Oakmont and get to another 'built to hold the open' venue of Erin Hills.

Let's hear the critics give their considered consructive advise in the face of what ever lessons the critics feel the USGA should have learned this time and tell us what should be done with Erin Hills, two years from now, particularly from those that know EH and the holes design and routing as it currently exist.   There is a ton of issues and tweaking that 'could' be done, and conditions that naturally exist that could screw up the national tournament from overly lush native-unplayable to flex in tees and wide corridors of fairways that can be adjusted wider to narrow with a half year prep.  Will EH have better spectator sight lines and circulation around the course?  Let's get the critics on record now, so they can either say, 'told you so' or back off once you start trying to come up with something better than you are currently criticizing.   8) ;D
 
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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2015, 06:30:24 PM »
Not many people I have been in contact with were terribly impressed by Chambers Bay even if they thought the course provided excitement.  One thing I will say is watching the event on a mediocore TV was difficult if one didn't know the course.  The lack of definition made it very hard to "intuitively" follow the action as I and everyone else in the bar hadn't a clue where the greens or elevations were.  Things seemed to happen randomly even though one knows this isn't true.  It eventually came down to guessing (once a ball landed) if the terrain was shedding or gathering...very few shots continued on their landing course.  In some ways it could be said Chambers Bay is too far advanced for the average guy's TV. 


Ciao
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:23:55 PM by Sean_A »
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Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2015, 07:13:52 PM »
I say the USGA will definitely bring the US Open back. I assume that CB will have a solution for the putting surfaces in ten+ years, so let's take away that issue.


Yes, it was hard to pick up the ball on televison. Shot tracer helped, and let's assume the TV guys can make it even easier in 10+ years.


Unquestionably, the course produced great drama. It was clarly a very stren test for the best golfers in the world; as much a mental test as physical. It is a public course, and is located in an area with few other viable options. It will be back.

JStewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2015, 07:29:08 PM »
I say the USGA will definitely bring the US Open back. I assume that CB will have a solution for the putting surfaces in ten+ years, so let's take away that issue.


Yes, it was hard to pick up the ball on televison. Shot tracer helped, and let's assume the TV guys can make it even easier in 10+ years.


Unquestionably, the course produced great drama. It was clarly a very stren test for the best golfers in the world; as much a mental test as physical. It is a public course, and is located in an area with few other viable options. It will be back.


It will definitely go back. It checks off too many boxes for the USGA, and they got a great champion. Fix the greens and it's a viable venue. It's certainly better than Torrey Pines which inexplicably got a second Open.

Jay Flemma

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2015, 09:19:26 PM »
"Great theater with bad grass."


Terry Lavin




It was great theater made better with bad grass. It was like watching Lord Grantham eat beef Wellington with his hands.

So is that why the Earl of Sandwich decided to...?
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BHoover

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2015, 09:21:35 PM »
Hopefully the last time Golf Digest rolls out Dan Jenkins to be an unfunny curmudgeon. I certainly appreciate snark and sarcasm, but Mr. Jenkins is past his expiration date in this context.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 09:25:51 PM by Brian Hoover »

David Kelly

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2015, 09:53:36 PM »
I don't think there is a single shred of evidence that the course has anything to do with providing an exciting tournament.  I think events just randomly come together to make for an exciting tournament.  Torrey Pines provided one of the most exciting US Opens in history as did Medinah in 1990.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Jim Nugent

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2015, 12:01:06 AM »
Can Chambers solve the viewing problems, so spectators can reasonably circulate around the course, and even follow groups if they choose? 

Garland Bayley

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2015, 01:52:33 AM »
I don't think there is a single shred of evidence that the course has anything to do with providing an exciting tournament.  I think events just randomly come together to make for an exciting tournament.  Torrey Pines provided one of the most exciting US Opens in history as did Medinah in 1990.


I concur.

Wait a minute, let me modify that. The drama seems to me to be venue independent.
Watching the ball bounce and roll was entertaining beyond what you get at other venues, at least for me.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 01:54:20 AM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2015, 02:46:57 AM »
The year they played two British Opens. One in Scotland and one in Washington.
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Thomas Dai

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2015, 02:53:52 AM »
The year they played two British Opens. One in Scotland and one in Washington.


........one played on a course that was OTT and the other on a course that's no longer appropriate to hold The Open? :)


atb

Michael Tamburrini

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Re: 2015 US Open ... the verdict? the judgement of history will be?
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2015, 03:57:38 AM »
Not many people I have been in contact with were terribly impressed by Chambers Bay even if they thought the course provided excitement.  One thing I will say is watching the event on a mediocore TV was difficult if one didn't know the course.  The lack of definition made it very hard to "intuitively" follow the action as I and everyone else in the bar hadn't a clue where the greens or elevations were.  Things seemed to happen randomly even though one knows this isn't true.  It eventually came down to guessing (once a ball landed) if the terrain was shedding or gathering...very few shots continued on their landing course.  In some ways it could be said Chambers Bay is too far advanced for the average guy's TV. 


Ciao


I think there's a couple of other factors which make it difficult for TV viewers to become as familiar with the course.


Two tee starts:  20 years ago the coverage would mainly focus on the back 9 over the first couple of days, giving the viewer a chance to build familiarity with each of those holes, before the front 9 was focused on.  Nowadays the two tee starts mean coverage is from all over the place from early Thursday morning: Whilst Mickelson is playing 15, the other feature group with McIlroy is on the 3rd.


Secondly the constant changing of tee boxes. It's difficult to recognise a hole when they're playing from a new tee or when the landing area on tee shots can vary by 100+ yards or when it's a completely different par to the previous day.


Having said that, I thought the shot tracer helped a great deal (albeit they were sometimes too slow to switch to the ball landing).  But, for a casual observer, golf doesn't make it easy.