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John Percival

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PLEASE, please USGA
« on: June 22, 2015, 07:49:18 AM »
Whether you liked the course or not.

Whether you thought the greens sucked.(Relate the green conditions to soft ice for the Stanley Cup finals, or for you Euro's, 3 inch grass for the World Cup. Give the players a proper canvas.)

Whether you hated FOX.

Cant we all agree that the finish was gripping?

So, USGA, can you PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE reconsider the antiquated 18 hole playoff and get it done on Day 4?
If DJ 2 putts, it all rolls over to Monday.
Two guys
18 holes?
God only knows what time they start
C'mon.
The definition of un-seizing the moment.
Please!

Just like the green examples above...Overtime in the Cup finals?
Come back tomorrow night.
World Cup Penalty kicks after overtime?
Let's do it tomorrow.
Sounds stupid, right?

Go to the 3 or 4 hole playoff.
Please.
Talk about ratings.

And if someone wants to drag out tradition, then, OK, lets go all in on tradition and make em play the 18 holes with hicks.
And guttys.

And if someone says that the hicks and guttys idea is stupid, you're right.
Just like finishing any event the next day


noonan

Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2015, 07:53:40 AM »
The greens were substandard. That is a fact.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2015, 08:01:05 AM »
I was getting queasy at the thought of how Davis would set up the playoff. It was bad enough that he took away Dustin's advantage with the driver on Sunday. How blatant would the set up have been to guarantee the proper people's intercontinental champion?  Hey, it's all for the good of the game.

RKoehn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2015, 08:05:58 AM »
Dustin's ballstriking was the finest I have seen in my life, on par with Tiger's in the 2000-1 timeframe.  Truly remarkable.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2015, 08:11:38 AM »
Dustin's ballstriking was the finest I have seen in my life, on par with Tiger's in the 2000-1 timeframe.  Truly remarkable.


Which is why it was a shame to see 12 and 16 set up so short that he couldn't hit driver. But short enough that the intercontinental champion could drive the greens.  Davismania Going Wild. WWUSGA

RKoehn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2015, 08:22:01 AM »
Dustin's ballstriking was the finest I have seen in my life, on par with Tiger's in the 2000-1 timeframe.  Truly remarkable.

Which is why it was a shame to see 12 and 16 set up so short that he couldn't hit driver. But short enough that the intercontinental champion could drive the greens.  Davismania Going Wild. WWUSGA

What would Bill Campbell have said?

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2015, 08:54:43 AM »
Davis got carried away with the setup of some of the final holes, or so it seems in retrospect, but I rather doubt he did it to favor any player or to screw any specific player. He probably just tried to go a little softer on these holes in an effort to look like a kinder and gentler setup man, for a change of pace.  At the end of the tournament, it was nerves, not setup gerrymandering, that dictated the outcome.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2015, 09:14:31 AM »
Did you see Lee Westwood's interview on Sky (as below)?
 
http://www.balls.ie/golf/lee-westwood-us-open-chambers-bay/297818
 
He wasn't slamming the greens or the course (other than difficulty of spectator viewing). He was slamming the set-up.
 
I think I agree.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2015, 09:18:10 AM »
Davis got carried away with the setup of some of the final holes, or so it seems in retrospect, but I rather doubt he did it to favor any player or to screw any specific player. He probably just tried to go a little softer on these holes in an effort to look like a kinder and gentler setup man, for a change of pace.  At the end of the tournament, it was nerves, not setup gerrymandering, that dictated the outcome.


But why not leave well enough alone? Through three rounds, CBay had produced a pretty interesting and compelling championship -- solid play was rewarded, sloppy or indifferent play penalized, and a solid mix of holes that you could attack vs. ones that were a grind. Several guys were under par, but not enormously so, and 4 were tied for the lead at a modest -4 going into the final round.


Look, it's pretty evident that Davis' alleged love of old-timey golf architecture is a crock; what he really likes is good theater and great ratings (see: prime-time finishes on the West Coast; final pairings teeing off at dinnertime for most of the viewing public; handing television rights over to Fox). He lied about the set-up at Congressional, and he's been completely disingenuous about the conditions of the greens. His fanaticism with how to set-up specific holes for specific days of the tournament just lends itself to a degree of cynicism that's easily avoided. When an astute guy like Geoff Schackelford is hash-tagging his twitter comments about Davis with #nothelpingdispeltheviewit'sallaboutMike -- he's exactly correct.


(Mandatory Richard Choi-inspired caveat, having not played this or any other US Open course: I thought CBay was a really good test for the U.S. Open, a great mix of holes that required thoughtful play, and -- in a world where the USGA is too scared to take on the golf technology race -- is deserving of another Open. Not in the same league, it seems, as Oakmont, Pebble, or Shinnecock, but certainly better than Congressional, and on par with BBlack and Torrey Pines.)

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2015, 09:19:19 AM »
Terry:  I don't think he did it to favor a particular player but even the ability to make hole sale changes like that leaves open that possibility. He needs to make it clear what he's going to do before the tournament starts. 

Frankly, I'm getting sick of seeing his little gremlin face on TV all the time.  He has inserted himself way too much into the narrative and I think people are tiring of it.   He was once hailed for originality.  Now everything he does is rote.   What's in store for next year's Open, Mike?  Let me take a guess:  flexible tees and ... Wait... Let me guess.... A driveable par 4.... 

Wow.  What a genius he is!!
ditto. Just like Feherty was funny before people told him he was funny (and now it is forced IMO), Davis did a good job until people told him he did, and now it is "overdone". Shame on both counts really! Davis is now the focus of many telecasts when it should be about the players and the tournament, time for him to back off.
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2015, 09:21:53 AM »
Shivas,

I'll agree that what started out as flights of whimsy have gotten stale already and that the newest wrinkle (uneven teeing ground) came across as self-indulgent on Davis's part. They do seem to be evolving, which is a good thing, even if it comes off as pandering to the public while tweaking the competitors.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2015, 09:41:16 AM »
I simply don't understand the criticism if what you want is the winner playing the best golf.  Look at Sunday and who is in the lead at the start and who is in contention.  Four guys are tied going into the final round and what happens?  Unfortunately Day has a medical issue and is brave just to play the round but cannot match the others.  Oosthuizen plays the greatest back nine in US Open history and would have easily won had he been able to tune out Tiger before the second round.  Grace is right there but for that horrendous OB shot on 16.  Spieth plays well and pulls off a great second shot at 18 to post a score that is there to challenge his fellow leader going into the final round.  DJ hits a great drive on 18 which leaves him only a 5 iron and he hits a great shot but unfortunately he cannot make either putt. Sorry but I would much rather watch this and view this as great golf when compared to Rory blowing away the field at Congressional or Kaymer doing the same at Pinehurst.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2015, 09:42:03 AM »
I disagree with every complaint in this thread.
Coming in 2024
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2015, 09:49:38 AM »
Somebody please refresh my memory.   Was Davis in his current position or in a top executive slot when they first contracted with RTJjr and recruited Pierce Co. into development of Chambers Bay?   

What I am getting at is that when people criticize the runaway and uneven teeing grounds and other interfaces of architecture and maintenance-presentation, was it baked in from the beginning?  The idea that the fescue has been constantly on the edge of failure with several fits and starts, and the tweaking after the US Am, then we got what we all should have expected.  Thus, if a guy like Davis has already established a reputation as a tweak as we go through the week set-up gremlin, well we got what we should have already have known was going to be the process.  I also really don't think he tweaked to favor a particular individual.  I think it is merely using the flexibility in the design/architecture that so many have been calling for and now they don't want him to use it.   

First we lament we want to see more shot makers who can play the ground and architecture quirks and clever design which would favor perhaps a shorter more deft ball striker.  We decry the bomb and gouge.  Then we lament the ultimate bomber's so-called disadvantage or at least his diminishment of his power because Davis moves two tees up so other clever strikers could take a shot with some ball movement. 

What exactly is it you require of those responsible for set-up of a top national tournament or major?

I do not think moving the tees up was such an advantage to DJ.  Afterall, he got to hit fairway woods and even hybrids that most would say are more accurate where others were still hitting the more dicey to control driver.  DJ just happened to have an astounding driving game this week.  But, remember the Pebble Beach incident where he bombed himself so far astray of a hole that he knocked himself right out of the final mix. 

We can talk about DJ's length and how it was disfavored on final round by Davis, etc.   But, what we should look at is the near heroics of a guy like Oosteisen who put on a real show of clever ball striking, course management and patience to play the course he found that day, set up by Davis.  Between the actual winner and that story line, and final round charges by Ooostie and Scott, we should be glad we got to see an interesting set up on a course designed to be 'different' from standard USGA fare.  Next year, we can go back to the shlog of Oakmont.      .... and there will be those that will be unhappy with the set up and presentation of the design there. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Colin Shellard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2015, 10:02:31 AM »
Going back to the OPs initial point (at least I think I am  ??? ) an 18 hole playoff does seem to be a bit pointless in the current day. All other forms of sport have moved on so that we can crown the winner on the same day we think we'll be doing it. The four hole playoff seems to be the best compromise to me, and given this was played on mid-summers day there would have been plenty of light to get it finished.

Brent Hutto

Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2015, 10:05:16 AM »
RJ,


I think what we're complaining about is that there is no longer (for this particular Major) a concept of picking a course which is interesting due to its design or history, prepping it carefully then stepping back to see how the best players in the world deal with it over four days. As obsessives about Golf Course Architecture it's no surprise we want to see the course allowed to interact with the players over several rounds with everyone involved pretty much knowing what they're going to be dealing with by the time Tuesday rolls around. Of course weather is always the wild card in golf.


The US Open is no longer contested under that set of assumptions. Courses are picked for their "flexibility" which really means their ability to let Mike Davis stage-manage every element of the course (except the weather) and to try and pull the rug out from under the players each day by moving tees around 100+ yards, changing Par designations, whatever suits his fancy.


What they really want is a reality show where what actually goes on shot by shot, hour by hour has a live-sports-television frisson but there is always a producer lurking just off camera to push, pull, prod and tweak the situation to suit some arbitrary set of storylines. Of course it's live tournament golf. It can't really be manipulated like an episode of Big Break but I'll be damned if that isn't what Mike Davis is shooting for.


So this time the "unscripted" reality provided a truly compelling weekend of television. Remember just 365 days ago when they did the same thing at Pinehurst? It was a ridiculous snooze-fest. Can we conclude (as GCA obsessives) that Chambers Bay is simply a far, far better US Open venue and superior course design to Pinehurst #2? No we can not. What we can conclude is that this time the elite field made Mike Davis look like a genius and last year the same elite field made him look like he totally missed the mark.


The US Open setup for this year was no better than it was last year. Nor is Chambers Bay a better course. Nor is the flippin' Fescue grass the One True Turf that totally trumps Bermuda in every way (Juli Inkster not withstanding). He/they got lucky and the players created great theater this year. It happens sometimes, other times a Kaymer putts his way from off the green to an umpteen shot vicotry.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2015, 10:14:45 AM »
Did you see Lee Westwood's interview on Sky (as below)?
 
http://www.balls.ie/golf/lee-westwood-us-open-chambers-bay/297818
 
He wasn't slamming the greens or the course (other than difficulty of spectator viewing). He was slamming the set-up.
 
I think I agree.


Well worth watching.  His points are spot and agree 100%.  No whining unlike many others and it's not about he greens....

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2015, 10:27:53 AM »
I'm with you Brent. Good post.


Bob

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2015, 10:38:59 AM »
As a viewer, I enjoyed the chance to see folks make a charge on the back 9 on Sunday of the Open. Driveable par 4's and reachable par 5's allow late drama, which is good TV.
 
I'm thrilled -5 won, and 12 palyers were at or below par, annoying the blue blazers who enjoy "defending par."
 
IMHO Dan jenkins described the playing conditions best " players were misjudging the break in the dirt of the greens."
 
I just saw the replay of DJ's bidie putt on 18.....sure looks like a hop to me.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2015, 10:45:14 AM »
Did you see Lee Westwood's interview on Sky (as below)?
 
http://www.balls.ie/golf/lee-westwood-us-open-chambers-bay/297818
 
He wasn't slamming the greens or the course (other than difficulty of spectator viewing). He was slamming the set-up.
 
I think I agree.


Well worth watching.  His points are spot and agree 100%.  No whining unlike many others and it's not about he greens....


I'll grant him the point that changing the par / yardage on the 18th was messing with the architectural intent.


But he's really complaining that they used a shorter tee on the 15th hole?  You think a player with US Open Championship mettle is going to be unhinged by having to !gasp! adjust his yardage?  Dear god, like they don't do that on every par 4 or par 5 depending on how well they hit their drives, wind conditions, pin position, etc. 


Players complaining about "flexibility" aren't doing too much to dispel the notion that they're all becoming homogenized robots.


Tom Doak designs a course with no set teeing grounds and it's hailed as a brilliant concept.  Mike Davis essentially uses the same concept of variety and it's all about his ego.


Did I want to see the 15th play the same every day? Not really.  Was someone really complaining that Mike Davis was using flexibility to create entertainment?  Once you decide that something should be televised, that is a factor to be considered.  But it's not as if he implemented some non-golf gimmick to provide artificial entertainment.  Some of the criticism here just eludes me.





David Whitmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2015, 11:23:13 AM »
Count me as one who does not agree with the Mike Davis / USGA bashing. I have no problem with any aspect of the course setup this past week.

What is wrong with trying to have the best players in the world think a little bit? What is wrong with asking them to adjust their game plans each day? I played The Old Course a few years ago, two days in a row, and saw opposite winds each day. I hit a 3 iron into #17 one day, and a PW into it the next day. This past week, guys hit 4 irons into #15 on Saturday, and 8 irons into it yesterday. Why is it okay when mother nature forces me to adapt, but it's "stupid" when Mike Davis forces guys to adapt? Same with #18 this past week. Why can't guys hit something less than driver off the tee, and end up with what DJ had (yesterday) for an approach shot when it played as a par 4? Instead they kept hitting driver into the right-hand bunker, had tough approaches, and complained about the green not being a "par 4" green. A bunch of guys made a 4 when it played as a par 5...why can't they make a 4 when it played as a par 4?

The whining turned me off big time. Just go play. Mike Davis's job is to set up the golf course to challenge the world's best players. Isn't part of that challenge mental? "Here...I have a wrinkle for you...let's see how you deal with it." God forbid it interferes with their game plans.

As far as the greens...I didn't care one bit. I saw plenty of putts go in. The best players  in the world ended up on the leaderboard, and they broke par. Don't tell me putts weren't able to go in. Don't tell me it was luck if a putt fell. When the world's best are in contention, it's not a course that demands luck to score well. Did you get a bad break back there? Oh well...keep fighting! Quit your bitching and keep playing hard. If this event really disagrees with you, then do everyone a favor and skip it next year. 

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2015, 11:35:14 AM »
Everyone was trying to blame someone on the condition of the greens.  The problem is, you can't blame the USGA or RTJ or Kemper.  It's fescue and mother nature.  I want to see Billy Ho blame GOD.  I'm sure if the truth was told the USGA spent thousands of hours and money on getting those greens correct.  Sometimes it just doesn't happen.


Lastly, the ending was intense.  The cream rose to the top. 

Brent Hutto

Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2015, 11:40:27 AM »
I'm with you Brent. Good post.


Bob

Thanks, Bob. Although now that I've seen the Westwood clip he basically said it in fewer words. Plus his British accent made it sound much more authoritative  ;D

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2015, 11:41:44 AM »
Heard Colin Cowherd driving in today --His rant was 'quit complaining about why people are talking about Golf and enjoy the fact that they are talking about it. The only guys who didn't like it are old white guys who want to control everything. The better story than Jordan Speith is Dustin Johnson -- we like a little bit of a dumpster fire.'

I agree a little about setting it up too differently from the other days but that was the best US Open since Torrey Pines in my opinion and maybe since I've been paying attention -- I give Mike Davis a B+.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 12:40:53 PM by Buck Wolter »
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Brent Hutto

Re: PLEASE, please USGA
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2015, 11:48:01 AM »
Everyone was trying to blame someone on the condition of the greens.  The problem is, you can't blame the USGA or RTJ or Kemper.  It's fescue and mother nature.  I want to see Billy Ho blame GOD.  I'm sure if the truth was told the USGA spent thousands of hours and money on getting those greens correct.  Sometimes it just doesn't happen.


Lastly, the ending was intense.  The cream rose to the top.


I live in the central part of South Carolina. It's only in the past couple of years that private clubs and CCFAD type operations have abandoned the age-old pursuit of bent grass greens in an area where they just don't work during the summer. They persisted through *decades* of playing all summer on soppy wet, deliberately overwatered bent grass while enormous fan whooshed nearby trying to keep the grass alive WHILE STILL HAVING MEDIOCRE PUTTING AT BEST. Finally the new ultradwarf varieties have given the heave-ho to using grass ill suited to purpose around here.


In my opinion, if people around here are too good for putting on Bermuda grass then go buy a summer house in the mountains. Likewise, if the USGA is too good to have tournaments on mostly Poa greens then maybe they ought to just settle for having them somewhere other than Tacoma, WA for goodness sake.


It's one thing to say the greens were God's doing because God gives Tacoma a climate where Poa rules. Except for the fact it was the USGA and not God who turfed those suckers with a Fescue monoculture and expected the Poa to just magically stay away for the better part of a decade until they were ready for their big show. It's like playing in traffic and blaming God that you were flattened by an 18-wheeler.