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Terry Lavin

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Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2015, 01:17:39 PM »
I think Brandy is a weanling wood louse of a preening chatterer, but at least he tried to broach this rather technical subject in a way that could alleviate the dismay of an otherwise uninformed American viewer.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Kirk

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Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2015, 01:24:20 PM »

1.  "We architecture buffs would likely choose Oakmont or Winged Foot, and certainly Augusta National, over Torrey Pines.  But the severity of the greens yield less exciting results by tentative golfers playing defensively.  For these reasons, Chambers Bay will make a fine Open venue, if they can keep the poa annua out until 2015, and the USGA will gladly return to Torrey Pines."

John Kirk, June 17, 2008
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35104.msg707472.html#msg707472


2. 
Honestly, I cringe whenever threads about agronomy get going, and especially when it makes its way to TV.  Managing turf at high-end conditions is not for amateurs.

But I like grass talk.  It's fun!

3.  To the best of my knowledge, no Pacific Northwest course west of the Cascades has kept poa out of the greens.  Every one succumbs to significant invasion within 10 years.  It doesn't matter whether the planted grass is bent or fescue.

As I've said before, the best example that I've seen of maintaining bent grass greens on the west coast is at Stanford University, which are about 20 years old and still 90-95% bent.  They don't do traditional aerations there.

4.  Don, in the attached Golf World article is the statement: "When you dig into the dirt, here's what the poa annua problem at Chambers Bay amounts to: As greens bake out during the day, the fescue indigenous to the Pacific Northwest loses moisture and wilts.  Meanwhile, perennial poa thrives, turning what are smooth greens by morning into mini-minefields by afternoon."

I'm not sure I agree with this analysis.  If you had asked me, I'd have thought the annual varieties of poa cause most afternoon putting problems.

5.  For your information, according to my notes, Chambers Bay's greens were initially planted with about 45% red fescue, 45% Chewing's fescue, and 10% colonial bent.  Chewing's fescue is a variant of red fescue (Festuca rubra).


Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2015, 01:30:36 PM »
John,
I was being critical of Chamblee, not what was planted at CB or how it is cared for. My only comment on the greens themselves is the younger greens appear to be cleaner than the older ones. Thus, I'm assuming the grass make up is different on some of the greens, and that is unusual for major championship play in the United States.

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2015, 02:17:08 PM »
A lot of people are talking about bent grass.
Are we sure the contouring would not be too severe for creeping bent ?
As for common bent, I don't know the climate but trust the comments of Steve Okula. It's often a good solution for european mountain courses, or highlands in Scotland, hence highland bent grass.


As for the Poa, maybe the Open came 20 or 30 years too early, the tufted flowering Poa will eventually produce good putting surfaces, even if it's inconsistent and a pain to manage. You can't compare old Poa greens on classic courses, which is totally different to a young course suffering from the initial invasion of course Poa.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2015, 03:21:50 PM »
Hi Don,

I wasn't trying to comment on anything you said, and I certainly didn't think you were being critical of the course and maintenance.  Being up here this weekend gives me a greater appreciation of the huge efforts made by the USGA and Eric Johnson's permanent crew.  It's a massive operation of golf course preparation, using state of the art knowledge and tools.  In person, the course is spectacularly beautiful and fast, and the course is yielding some very interesting shots and results.

If I'm not mistaken, Chamblee suggested a couple days ago that a strain of bermuda grass (Tif Dwarf?) might have been the best choice of grass.  And I think we agree that is bad advice, because bermuda grasses aren't well suited to the Pacific Northwest climate, which is cool, moderate, with seasonal rainfall patterns. 

RJ_Daley

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Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2015, 04:33:41 PM »
I'll try coming at the question from a different angle.   Can any of our PNW forum contributors tell us of any other high quality tournament capable courses from Portland to Bellingam and within 30 miles of the urban centers, that have truly top tournament quality putting green turf at this June time frame of a US Open?  If so, what are the varieties and cultivar mixes of said tournament quality putting greens if known?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2015, 06:31:36 PM »
When I was at R Hoylake shortly after the 2006 brown Open I sat next to the R&A chief agronomist whose name escapes me now and we talked about grasses. He was very emphatic that the reason they let the courses go brown was to control the poa at a goal of around 10%. These players are so spoiled in so many ways that they can't adjust to reality.

I am going to try to invite Lorne Smith. editor of the Fine Golf newsletter and a champion of fine fescues fo rover 10 years to chime in as he knows much more than any of us
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

archie_struthers

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Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2015, 07:11:32 PM »
 8)


Poa and bent , perfect together.    Well , better than the alternatives
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 08:04:26 PM by archie_struthers »

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2015, 10:42:55 PM »
Alister Biggs was who i sat next to and I wold live to hear his comments

Alas I forgot Lorne Smith can't post but his newsletter is called FineGolf
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2015, 04:21:35 AM »
Alister Biggs was who i sat next to and I wold live to hear his comments

Alas I forgot Lorne Smith can't post but his newsletter is called FineGolf


Beggs. Alistair was captain of Royal Liverpool last year, when it again hosted the Open.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2015, 04:36:15 AM »
When I was at R Hoylake shortly after the 2006 brown Open I sat next to the R&A chief agronomist whose name escapes me now and we talked about grasses. He was very emphatic that the reason they let the courses go brown was to control the poa at a goal of around 10%. These players are so spoiled in so many ways that they can't adjust to reality.

I think the key here as Alistair Biggs pointed out to you, is that you have to have the discipline to allow the greens to brown off every year to the point where poa dies. Not many clubs would except this but it is the only way of controlling the infestation. It has been pretty much universally said that fescue will not work as a monostand but it has been done at Castle Stuart as can be seen here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFuIKIMQIKc

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2015, 11:46:00 AM »
Marc:


Yes, but Castle Stuart isn't ten years old yet.


The difficulty in keeping poa annua out of the greens is that it has an ally in Mother Nature.  In most climates where bent or fescue are grown, you will eventually get a wet summer where you can't kill off the poa by drought, and then you've got a big enough population that it's hard to let it all die the next year.

George Pazin

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Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2015, 12:23:53 PM »
One (or more) of the highly knowledgeable posters on this thread should contact Geoff Shac directly and suggest that he suggest an agronomy expert be added to the Golf Channel lineup.

Brandel Chamblee annoys me for many reasons, so this just adds to the list, I guess... Sitting there with Nobilo and Duval, it was obvious who were the experts and who wasn't....
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jonathan Mallard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2015, 12:37:05 PM »
I've asked this question before, but didn't get a response.


So, I'll posit it again...


If, as stated below, the seed mix doesn't include poa, and germinates within expected parameters; how does the poa come to be?


I can think of two ways... well, really one way technically: animals.


The native variety that may carry seeds in their coats as they traipse about.


The human variety that may carry seeds in their shoes as they traipse about.


As such, what options are availble to deter such?

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2015, 01:37:26 PM »
Listening to Chamblee talk about grass was easily eclipsed by listening to Norman talk about vertigo.  I feared he was having a stroke.
 
bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2015, 02:27:44 PM »

It has been pretty much universally said that fescue will not work as a monostand

Marc,

it can work as a monostand in a semi-arid environment with free draining soils and in such a situation why would you not do it. In any other climate though why would anyone want a monostand? Surely a mixed sward is more desirable allowing the various grasses to improve the sward where they are suited and so also help cover each others weakness.

What is this desire by many, especially in the US to have a monoculture on the greens? I have asked this question several times and never gotten a logical answer leading me to suspect it is a mindless dogma where even well educated people blindly regurgitate it for fear of looking out of step despite not really understanding why it is supposedly good.

A monoculture in the UK is a pipedream and never achievable over a longer stretch but then again why would you want to.

Jon

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2015, 03:13:44 PM »

It has been pretty much universally said that fescue will not work as a monostand

Marc,

it can work as a monostand in a semi-arid environment with free draining soils and in such a situation why would you not do it. In any other climate though why would anyone want a monostand? Surely a mixed sward is more desirable allowing the various grasses to improve the sward where they are suited and so also help cover each others weakness.

What is this desire by many, especially in the US to have a monoculture on the greens? I have asked this question several times and never gotten a logical answer leading me to suspect it is a mindless dogma where even well educated people blindly regurgitate it for fear of looking out of step despite not really understanding why it is supposedly good.

A monoculture in the UK is a pipedream and never achievable over a longer stretch but then again why would you want to.

Jon


Jon:


Same reason why there is a Westminster Dog Show.  Even though mutts may be smarter, people like to gush over purebreds.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2015, 03:16:47 PM »
I've asked this question before, but didn't get a response.


So, I'll posit it again...


If, as stated below, the seed mix doesn't include poa, and germinates within expected parameters; how does the poa come to be?


I can think of two ways... well, really one way technically: animals.


The native variety that may carry seeds in their coats as they traipse about.


The human variety that may carry seeds in their shoes as they traipse about.


As such, what options are availble to deter such?


Jonathan:


You're not even a tenth of the way there to figuring out how poa gets into the greens.


You might be able to deter some of the intrusion, but you won't stop all of it.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

George Pazin

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Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2015, 04:53:22 PM »

Jonathan:


You're not even a tenth of the way there to figuring out how poa gets into the greens.


You might be able to deter some of the intrusion, but you won't stop all of it.


Sven

Please share more, expand on where he is wrong.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2015, 05:14:53 PM »
We do have a course here that sprays shoes when people arrive to try and keep Poa out.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2015, 05:19:27 PM »

Jonathan:


You're not even a tenth of the way there to figuring out how poa gets into the greens.


You might be able to deter some of the intrusion, but you won't stop all of it.


Sven

Please share more, expand on where he is wrong.


I didn't say he was wrong, I was alluding to the fact that there are a number of other ways in which Poa seeds can be spread.


Trying to clean shoes and keeping animals off the course will only go so far.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2015, 05:39:08 PM »
Wait, is poa the reason that there are no squirrels at Augusta? Do they keep the animals out to keep the poa out?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2015, 05:42:28 PM »
Wait, is poa the reason that there are no squirrels at Augusta? Do they keep the animals out to keep the poa out?


There are squirrels, they're just painted green to blend in.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2015, 08:11:11 PM »
George / Sven / Jason et al.:


Poa annua seed is everywhere, already.


I have told the story here before that when we were building Stone Eagle, we had to run water trucks to keep the construction roads from getting dusty, by California law.  As soon as we started watering the roads, green grass started sprouting up beside the roads all over the place ... way up on the mountain in the desert where it hardly ever rains.


What was it?  It was poa annua.  The seed had just been sitting there waiting for some water to come along.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2015, 08:26:35 PM »
And how did the seed get there?  The lizards, coyotes, and other animals probably forgot to wash their shoes.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)