Listening to Chamblee talk about grass...

[Don Mahaffey]

...makes me want to cut my ears off.
Whatever the conditions of the greens, BC hasn't the first damn clue what he is talking about when he puts on his agronomy hat.

[Dave McCollum]

How true.

[Ronald Montesano]

Don, can you elaborate/give examples, for those who haven't had the pleasure of hearing his lusty depositions? I'm one of them and would love to know what he claims.

[Don Mahaffey]

Ron, early in the week he mentioned tif eagle bermudagrass as an alternative to the fescue. Bermuda grass in coastal NW? On a course with fescue thru the green? idiotic.
Tonight he quotes an "agronomist friend" who gave him the names of numerous bent varieties, all of which are used for pure bent greens and said they could have combined the bent with the fescue. He never mentioned colonial bent which is sometimes planted with fescue, and listed the more stoloniferous grasses like A1 and A4 and said that Friars head had combined these bents with fescue and Chanbers should do the same. No one plants A1, A4, and fescue together.

He has no clue what he is talking about.

I wish a guy like Shac would call him out. Guarantee if he was on Fox saying those things Shac would be all over him.   

[Richard Choi]

And like bent grass would keep out poa... please.

[Don Mahaffey]

Richard, I believe that it is easier to get poa and bent to co-exist then it is to get poa and fescue to work together.
My point here is not to say the greens don't have issues because I think it is to deny the obvious to say that.
But I think it is getting overblown a bit and I hate the idea that people think there is some sort of simple answers that have eluded the turf team at CB.
The only way they were going to have pure fescue greens was if the county let them re grass all when they grassed the new greens, which look perfect. But no way they shut off that revenue stream and now they live with the consequences. That is not the supts doing.

[Grant Saunders]

Don

Why dont we see any colonial bents used as the predominant species for greens in the US?

Very good drought tolerance and disease resistance compared to creeping bent. It doesnt produce the fastest speeds but with a move to bold contours this could actually be a positive.

Careful water and fertility management can be extremely successful at minimising poa infiltration.

[Don Mahaffey]

Grant,
Good question and I don't have an answer other than most just go with the more aggressive varieties because they are denser and have better color. But that is pure guess.
As for keeping the poa out, tough to do in the damp NW US.

[Richard Choi]

Don, with ample spaces for alternate greens, they could have rebuilt almost every green (other than par 3's) over the last 2/3 years without shutting the course down. Now I wish they had...

[Grant Saunders]

Don

There are some very damp parts of NZ that also experience a fair bit of humidity. While poa can get in, low N and a focus on acidification does an excellent job of making life for the poa very difficult.

The smoothness that can be achieved with colonial with very little effort is also a huge positive

[Greg Chambers]

Growing grass is about growing the grass you have, not growing the grass you wish you had.....the USGA should have figured this out a few years ago at Chambers....they'd be in a better spot now if they had.

[Steve Okula]

Don

Why dont we see any colonial bents used as the predominant species for greens in the US?

Very good drought tolerance and disease resistance compared to creeping bent. It doesnt produce the fastest speeds but with a move to bold contours this could actually be a positive.

Careful water and fertility management can be extremely successful at minimising poa infiltration.

 I know you addressed this question to Don, but if I may interject.
 
 First of all, with green speed paramount to golfers’ perceptions of what makes greens good, it's more difficult to attain fast surfaces with colonial.
 
 Colonial is used for greens in the U.K. and New Zealand, where it's suited to the climate, and almost nowhere else. I think that most of the U.S. is too hot in the summer to favor it.
 
 Dr. Frank Beard in his authoritative "Turfgrass Science and Culture" lists colonial as less heat, drought, wear, and disease tolerant than creeping. Granted, that text is dated (1973), but more recent (2011) trials at Rutgers University in New Jersey demonstrated that overall turf quality of colonial was inferior to both creeping and velvet bentgrasses. http://turf.rutgers.edu/research/reports/2011/1.pdf
Finally, there is simply no greenkeeping experience in the U.S. with colonial bentgrass greens; people don’t know how to manage it. There is no desire to experiment with the unknown (as what happened at Chambers Bay) when the research suggests it is inferior to the available, proven species and methods.

Much the same is true for continental Europe as well, although with influence from nearby British greenkeepers colonial is making some inroads. For example, Morfontaine has been interseeding colonial into the greens (but to what advantage eludes me).
 
 
 
 
 

[Josh Stevens]

We have a lot of poa in Australia, but that is poa mixed in with bent, rather than fescue.  IN that situation it may look blotchy but still rolls true
I have no experience with fescue-poa mix but it would seem that is more the issue than the poa per se

[BCowan]

Ron, early in the week he mentioned tif eagle bermudagrass as an alternative to the fescue. Bermuda grass in coastal NW? On a course with fescue thru the green? idiotic.
Tonight he quotes an "agronomist friend" who gave him the names of numerous bent varieties, all of which are used for pure bent greens and said they could have combined the bent with the fescue. He never mentioned colonial bent which is sometimes planted with fescue, and listed the more stoloniferous grasses like A1 and A4 and said that Friars head had combined these bents with fescue and Chanbers should do the same. No one plants A1, A4, and fescue together.

He has no clue what he is talking about.

I wish a guy like Shac would call him out. Guarantee if he was on Fox saying those things Shac would be all over him.   

Don,

   First off I really don't like Chamblee, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.  I think his keeper friend was implying seeding the bent grass monthly over the course of two years to get the bent to overtake the fescue.  Being that the same company that produces A1 and A4 now has pure distinctions I'm surprised he didn't mention that strand which is far superior. 

[Don Mahaffey]

BC,
He mentioned a bunch of varieties, and pure distinctions might have been one.
But he had no clue what he was talking about, just enough info to sound informed to someone who might side with him.

[Don Mahaffey]

Here is what I think to be the best I've read on the subject so far. No attempt to play armchair agronomist, just the story with some nice background.

http://www.golfworlddigital.com/gw/20150620/?pg=15&pm=1&u1=friend#pg15

[Jason Topp]

I have not seen a ton of the tournament so far but are the greens really any different from those at Pebble Beach?  Also - I am confused why the Poa grows and the fescue wilts later in the day.  I thought dry conditions would favor the fescue.  Finally - would a higher height of cut resolve most of the issues that have been raised?

[Martin Lehmann]

Don

Why dont we see any colonial bents used as the predominant species for greens in the US?

Very good drought tolerance and disease resistance compared to creeping bent. It doesnt produce the fastest speeds but with a move to bold contours this could actually be a positive.

Careful water and fertility management can be extremely successful at minimising poa infiltration.

 I know you addressed this question to Don, but if I may interject.
 
 First of all, with green speed paramount to golfers’ perceptions of what makes greens good, it's more difficult to attain fast surfaces with colonial.
 
 Colonial is used for greens in the U.K. and New Zealand, where it's suited to the climate, and almost nowhere else. I think that most of the U.S. is too hot in the summer to favor it.
 
 Dr. Frank Beard in his authoritative "Turfgrass Science and Culture" lists colonial as less heat, drought, wear, and disease tolerant than creeping. Granted, that text is dated (1973), but more recent (2011) trials at Rutgers University in New Jersey demonstrated that overall turf quality of colonial was inferior to both creeping and velvet bentgrasses. http://turf.rutgers.edu/research/reports/2011/1.pdf
Finally, there is simply no greenkeeping experience in the U.S. with colonial bentgrass greens; people don’t know how to manage it. There is no desire to experiment with the unknown (as what happened at Chambers Bay) when the research suggests it is inferior to the available, proven species and methods.

Much the same is true for continental Europe as well, although with influence from nearby British greenkeepers colonial is making some inroads. For example, Morfontaine has been interseeding colonial into the greens (but to what advantage eludes me).
 
We are in the process of rebuilding the old push-up greens at my club in The Netherlands. They are build according to USGA specs and seeded with a mixture of colonial bent and fescue. So far the results are very good. We keep them as dry as possible and use very low amounts of nitrogen, thereby creating the least favorable conditions for poa. The new greens are small and quite undulated. We aim at green speeds around stimp 8/9. Rolling the greens 3 or 4 times per week is helping a lot as is removing invading poa by hand using a knife. Time will tell if this is going to be sustainable, but right now hopes are high.
 
 

[William_G]

Richard, I believe that it is easier to get poa and bent to co-exist then it is to get poa and fescue to work together.
My point here is not to say the greens don't have issues because I think it is to deny the obvious to say that.
But I think it is getting overblown a bit and I hate the idea that people think there is some sort of simple answers that have eluded the turf team at CB.
The only way they were going to have pure fescue greens was if the county let them re grass all when they grassed the new greens, which look perfect. But no way they shut off that revenue stream and now they live with the consequences. That is not the supts doing.

+1

the regrassed greens do look better, they should have at least redone 12 as well as that green looks pretty bad

yet we are talking about "looks", and the greens all appeared to play pretty well yesterday which is a "functional" issue

so it looks like they are functioning, LOL

they have worked very hard to make this whole thing happen on a difficult site

[Tom_Doak]

Steve O:


Your textbook on grasses was written by Dr. Jim Beard.


Frank Beard was an old golf pro and I'm pretty sure he never got a Ph.D.    But there are a lot of people talking about grass this week that don't have any real knowledge of turfgrass!


Honestly, I cringe whenever threads about agronomy get going, and especially when it makes its way to TV.  Managing turf at high-end conditions is not for amateurs.

[Steve Okula]

Steve O:


Your textbook on grasses was written by Dr. Jim Beard.


Frank Beard was an old golf pro and I'm pretty sure he never got a Ph.D.    But there are a lot of people talking about grass this week that don't have any real knowledge of turfgrass!


Honestly, I cringe whenever threads about agronomy get going, and especially when it makes its way to TV.  Managing turf at high-end conditions is not for amateurs.

James Beard, yes, my mistake.

[Daryl David]

Wow. Pro golfer, grass expert and famous chef. 


James Beard was an American cookbook author, teacher, syndicated columnist and television personality. Beard was a champion of American cuisine who taught and mentored generations of professional chefs and food enthusiasts.

[RJ_Daley]

Chamblee talks turf and "beard pulling" ensues.... 

[John Connolly]

I have not seen a ton of the tournament so far but are the greens really any different from those at Pebble Beach?  Also - I am confused why the Poa grows and the fescue wilts later in the day.  I thought dry conditions would favor the fescue.  Finally - would a higher height of cut resolve most of the issues that have been raised?

I have the same question about the article. I thought wet conditions favor Poa over fescue and dry conditions favor fescue over Poa. Don?

[Jon Wiggett]

A happy mix of fescue, brown top bent and poa has a proven record going back centauries. They all have there strengths and weaknesses but all in all brush along just fine.