Public courses without carts

[Mark Pearce]

In one of the Chambers Bay threads, this statement was made:

A "public" course with no cart option is ridiculous.

Do people agree with this?  If so, why?

[Niall C]

Mark

It depends on the context. For example is it a US or UK public course, are you looking at it from a commercial point of view or from the point of view of disabled access legislation etc. While you and I know that public courses (and indeed private courses) in this country have got along quite nicely without buggies, and that there currently is very little demand for them, sadly the direction of travel both from a legislative and commercial view is going to be towards the use of buggies.
I say sadly because you see how the use of buggies is to the detriment of new courses designs elsewhere and I’d hate to see that happen here in the UK. Even worse, I’d hate to see classic old courses being adapted to accommodate them.
Niall

[Sean_A]

The question has everything to do with "public".  If we are talking public in terms of public money was used, then no carts is a very dubious management decision.  If its a privately owned public course then I have no issue with no carts. 


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

I am generally in favour of no cart for players unless there is a medical reason.

Jon

[Ryan Coles]

Outside of links/top 100 courses, demand for buggies in my experience is growing. Society days and casual visitors all seem to want buggies. Like it or not, for most they are part of the day out and a good source of revenue for many courses.


Anyone can get a medical exemption these days, those who have them are far from disabled. Run of the mill members clubs such as the one I work at are investing in them out of necessity. The demand from an ageing membership, mean they are a commercial necessity and if you don't provide them, some members and lots of visitors will go elsewhere.


I too would hate to see classic courses adapted for buggy use, but in truth, the classic courses are under less commercial pressure to provide them and they are well placed to take a "walk or don't play" approach.


I actually think the massive increase in electric trolley use and everyone wheeling around a huge bag, particularly in winter is more damaging to courses.

[Niall C]

Ryan


I think you are ignoring the DDA legislation. I suspect that this will have more of a bearing than commercial issus in times to come.


Niall

[Ryan Coles]

Niall


I don't think I am.


It's actually the equality act 2010 definition is more relevant to buggy use:


“A person has a disability for the purposes of the Act if he or she has a physical or mental impairment and the impairment has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on his or her ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities.”


Playing golf is considered a normal day-today activity. Player produces a doctors note to say that he has difficulty walking a full 18, player is entitled to use a buggy. Player is not entitled however to expect the Club to provide the buggy.


Lots of Clubs don't allow buggies or ride on vehicles on "safety grounds" particularly at certain times of the year. Safety trumps the right to use a buggy.


My point is that the definition in the act and what most people would class as disability can be quite wide apart.


Lots of areas and policies of Clubs haven't been legally challenged yet.

[Scott Warren]

Do you need a particular level of disability to qualify under the above, Ryan, or would being too fat to walk 18 holes earn you the legal right to a buggy?

[Phil Young]

Carts are not allowed on Bethpage Black while they are on the other four courses. The only exception is for those with disabilities and arrangements must be made before hand. There are a number of disabled who have artificial legs who play the Black...  while walking on their prosthetic limbs and do not affect pace of play.

[Adam Warren]

Disclaimer: I am aware of the fescue at Chambers Bay.
 
What confuses me about Chambers Bay deciding to not have carts, is how on the Golf Channel last night they were talking about what a difficult walk it was for the players and there being these certain caddy injuries.  If it is a difficult walk for the best players in the world who have caddies, what kind of walk is it for me and you?  They discussed the over 8 mile distance of the walk and the elevation change and it seems like an odd decision to be public with no carts.  Does that strike anyone else as odd?

[Ryan Coles]

Do you need a particular level of disability to qualify under the above, Ryan, or would being too fat to walk 18 holes earn you the legal right to a buggy?

Being fat may be the underlying cause, but if it gives problems to the knees and ankles and the Dr attests to this, it is difficult for Club's to refuse, I think.

[Jim_Kennedy]

In one of the Chambers Bay threads, this statement was made:

A "public" course with no cart option is ridiculous.

Do people agree with this?  If so, why?

It doesn't really matter when rounds cost $300.00 @.

[Brent Hutto]

Disclaimer: I am aware of the fescue at Chambers Bay.
 
What confuses me about Chambers Bay deciding to not have carts, is how on the Golf Channel last night they were talking about what a difficult walk it was for the players and there being these certain caddy injuries.  If it is a difficult walk for the best players in the world who have caddies, what kind of walk is it for me and you?  They discussed the over 8 mile distance of the walk and the elevation change and it seems like an odd decision to be public with no carts.  Does that strike anyone else as odd?

So we've come full circle in the modern game. The ubiquity of carts has made spreading a course over an 8 mile distance seem normal. But then a few courses operating at the very, very high end of the market are operated as walking-only to appeal to an upscale demographic who associate walking-only with a premium product. As a result it becomes very desirable to have a caddie to carry your clubs over that 8-mile distance.


Rich guys walking US Open venues with caddies. Welcome back to the first half of the 20th century. Like the man says...

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

[BCowan]

He also implied that no carts was pretentious.  pretentious- "'attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.''

Golf was founded as a walking game, they still play it across the pond as a walking game.  As friends of mine have been across the pond to golf as I haven't, seem to like their culture.  Pretentious is the last adjective they use to describe golf there.  I guess they believe in preservation and conserving aspects of the game much better than we do in the US.  The entitlement US society that missuses words.  We have no definitions anymore, they can all be changed through Judiciary actions. 

I didn't know CB forced people to take caddies?  Another miss represented comment.  There is maybe 20 courses out of 15,500 or so courses that are walking only.  The hyper focus and statements are beyond humorous. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Rich guys walking US Open venues with caddies. Welcome back to the first half of the 20th century. Like the man says...

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

 

[Richard Choi]

I have walked Chambers by many, many times. I have played 36 holes/day there many times as well.


It is not an easy walk, but it is no harder than many other courses I have walked.

[Pete Lavallee]

In one of the Chambers Bay threads, this statement was made:

A "public" course with no cart option is ridiculous.

Do people agree with this?  If so, why?

Mark,
 
The person who made this statement comes in at over 20 stone and rides when playing golf.
Sadly at public courses here in the US you must have compelling architecture to insist on a walking only policy. Bandon does it to both preserve their fescue and because that's how Mike Kieser envisions "golf as it was meant to be". Chambers Bay also restricts carts to keep the fescue alive. Whistling Straits is walking only, although I don't believe they have fescue. Bethpage Black only allows walkers as it tends to keep those who don't have the requisite skills to play the course on the other 4 courses which do allow carts. Sadly, public course operators in the US would be committing financial suicide if they banned golf carts.
 

[Adam Warren]

I have walked Chambers by many, many times. I have played 36 holes/day there many times as well.


It is not an easy walk, but it is no harder than many other courses I have walked.

I have never heard Golf Channel, NBC, etc make reference to the "difficult walk" in the way they did for this event.  Why do you suppose that is a view about this course?

[Jeffrey Conners]

I have played Chambers five times walking and carrying my own bag.  I agree with Richard:  it's little different than a typical course in the Northeastern US.

[Donovan Childers]

I have walked Chambers by many, many times. I have played 36 holes/day there many times as well.



It is not an easy walk, but it is no harder than many other courses I have walked.

I have never heard Golf Channel, NBC, etc make reference to the "difficult walk" in the way they did for this event.  Why do you suppose that is a view about this course?

I think all the talk about the walk just makes for a good story. Sure it's a big walk and may be demanding, but you don't carry a bag or push a trolley. If I were playing this course I would take the caddy and let them do the work.

[Richard Choi]

I have never heard Golf Channel, NBC, etc make reference to the "difficult walk" in the way they did for this event.  Why do you suppose that is a view about this course?

Like any other US Open, they want to make it sound like this course is impossible to play. They cannot talk about the impossible rough, they cannot talk about impossible to hit fairways, they cannot talk about how incredibly fast the green is. All they have left is firmness and walk. What else are they going to talk about?

[Jason Thurman]

What is the argument supporting the idea that it's ridiculous for a public course not to have carts?


Municipal golf is pretty hard to justify for me. The only real arguments I can see in its favor are the preservation of green space and golf's potential health benefits. With that in mind, I've always thought it made sense for municipal courses to adopt policies that limit cart use to reduce energy consumption just a bit and also to encourage players to reap the health benefits of walking.


Chambers Bay seems to be an unusual municipal golf experience. I know some people think it's a tragedy that taxpayers helped pay for a course that doesn't allow every jean-short wearing redneck in the county to drop $30 to plop his fat ass down on some vinyl and sip a Miller Lite as he drives on top of every bunker lip while searching for his Slazenger, stopping only to take a leak on the lone fir. I'm just not convinced. Jesus, now that I think about it, try imagining carts in the hands of retail golfers on some of those slopes and on a course where the greens are outlined in white paint for the US Open to make it clear where the fairway ends. I don't know what would get destroyed faster - the carts or the greens.

[Eric Strulowitz]

It is up to the course, who are we to say what is ridiculous or not.

The game was meant to be walked.  It is healthy to walk.  It is unfortunate that many courses today are not walkable, and it is equally unfortunate that many players will not play without a cart, it is viewed as PART of the game,.

I realize the issues from a disability law standpoint,  I am all for making reasonable accommodations for those with documented medical problems.  Bit if the course wants to be all walking,  I am all for it.   If the course is not walkable due to topography or distance between holes, than the market in its efficiency will make an adjustment as golfers seek other alternatives.

[JC Jones]

Maybe golf was founded without carts because they weren't invented at the time.....

[BHoover]

Maybe golf was founded without carts because they weren't invented at the time.....

Mind blown...actually, it's hard to argue against this.