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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chambers Bay
Bandon
Cal Club
Dismal
Ballyneal?

Cabot Cliffs

« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 01:07:23 PM by Joel_Stewart »

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2015, 12:05:42 PM »
Ballyneal
Gamble Sands
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2015, 12:22:18 PM »
Erin Hills
Kingsley
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2015, 02:42:10 PM »
Tetherow
Sagebrush
Pacific Dunes
Old Macdonald
Bandon Trails
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 03:14:46 PM by Pete_Pittock »

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2015, 02:51:32 PM »
To answer the actual question of "how many": about 300 courses in the United States.

According to a Golf Course Superintendents Association of America (GCSAA) national survey of approximately 15,000 courses, fine fescue is used on 2 percent of course fairways and less than 1 percent on greens (in the United States).

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2015/06/14/3838441/fescue-grass-part-of-what-makes.html#storylink=cpy
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2015, 08:43:26 AM »
what are the advantages? I think the disadvantage is that it doesn"t stand up to cart traffic

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2015, 09:04:22 AM »
Is Whistling Straits still fescue in the fairways?

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2015, 09:16:38 AM »
Chambers Bay
Bandon
Cal Club
Dismal
Ballyneal?

Cabot Cliffs

I would say Cabot Links instead of Cliffs since the course is actually open!  ;)
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2015, 09:18:32 AM »
what are the advantages?

uh, have you ever played on it?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 09:32:06 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2015, 10:07:13 AM »
I think people are confusing fescue included blend with predominant fescue.

If the course has carts, I highly doubt it is predominantly fescue. We are talking about walking only courses here.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2015, 12:15:01 PM »
Cal Club..really?
that surprises me.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2015, 12:37:07 PM »
Not many have fescue greens:  Chambers Bay, and all the courses at Bandon Dunes do.  Ballyneal is being converted to bentgrass, after a lot of bentgrass contamination, which is not uncommon if you're not aggressively trying to keep it out.  Most of my recent fescue courses [Dismal River and the new one at Forest Dunes] were built with bentgrass greens, because their sister courses have the same.


I'm a pretty big advocate of fescue fairways in the right climate:  High Pointe had them, and so do Pacific Dunes and Old Mac and The Sheep Ranch and Ballyneal and Dismal River.  And I know you're just counting U.S. courses here, but Barnbougle was the first course in Australia to be all-fescue, and Tara Iti is now the first in New Zealand, as far as I'm aware.


You CAN have fescue fairways with carts, but it's pretty hard to keep them pure over time.  Many which have tried [including Sand Hills and the first course at Dismal] wind up pumping up the fertility to handle the traffic, and either get thatchy or get converted to other grasses.  We will have some carts at Forest Dunes, but hope we can get enough people to walk that the traffic doesn't take its toll.

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2015, 12:54:20 PM »
what are the advantages?

uh, have you ever played on it?
I'll answer your sarcasm by killing you with kindness and refining my question.
Yes, I have played on them. I assume the advantage is that it plays firm and fast. But how much of that is due to soil composition (sandy vs. clay) and or due to maintenance practices? If a lot of it is due to fescue itself, what characteristic of fescue lends itself to firmness and fastness?
Are there other advantages and disadvantages besides those already mentioned in the thread? How is water consumption with fescue?
I'm sure these things have been discussed somewhere in this DG, but I still don't know the answers and this seems like a good thread to ask the question.
 

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2015, 01:46:08 PM »

Per Robert Trent Jones Jr.


“Fine fescue only thrives in a maritime climate as a turf grass — like here in the Pacific Northwest,” said Jones, who has designed more than 230 courses on six continents. “We had a sandy site. It is a droughty grass. That is why it turns colors in the summer, but it is playable."  ([/size]http://www.theolympian.com/2015/06/14/3773633_fescue-grass-part-of-what-makes.html?rh=1)[/color]
[/color]
Strange thing to say considering Erin HIlls, Ballyneal, Dismal plus several other regions around the world. [/font][/color]

Read more here: http://www.theolympian.com/2015/06/14/3773633_fescue-grass-part-of-what-makes.html?rh=1#storylink=cpy

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2015, 02:46:48 PM »
Not many have fescue greens:  Chambers Bay, and all the courses at Bandon Dunes do.  Ballyneal is being converted to bentgrass, after a lot of bentgrass contamination, which is not uncommon if you're not aggressively trying to keep it out.  Most of my recent fescue courses [Dismal River and the new one at Forest Dunes] were built with bentgrass greens, because their sister courses have the same.

I'm a pretty big advocate of fescue fairways in the right climate:  High Pointe had them, and so do Pacific Dunes and Old Mac and The Sheep Ranch and Ballyneal and Dismal River.  And I know you're just counting U.S. courses here, but Barnbougle was the first course in Australia to be all-fescue, and Tara Iti is now the first in New Zealand, as far as I'm aware.

You CAN have fescue fairways with carts, but it's pretty hard to keep them pure over time.  Many which have tried [including Sand Hills and the first course at Dismal] wind up pumping up the fertility to handle the traffic, and either get thatchy or get converted to other grasses.  We will have some carts at Forest Dunes, but hope we can get enough people to walk that the traffic doesn't take its toll.


I didn't realize that your new course at Forest Dunes will have fescue fairways. Very interesting considering that the Weiskopf course is bent and most clubs/resorts with multiple courses try to stay consistent. Why did FD go against that norm?

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2015, 04:03:28 PM »
what are the advantages?

uh, have you ever played on it?
I'll answer your sarcasm by killing you with kindness and refining my question.
Yes, I have played on them. I assume the advantage is that it plays firm and fast. But how much of that is due to soil composition (sandy vs. clay) and or due to maintenance practices? If a lot of it is due to fescue itself, what characteristic of fescue lends itself to firmness and fastness?
Are there other advantages and disadvantages besides those already mentioned in the thread? How is water consumption with fescue?
I'm sure these things have been discussed somewhere in this DG, but I still don't know the answers and this seems like a good thread to ask the question.

Fescue is very good where low nutrient input including water is required combined with free draining soil. It gives a very good playing surface at a higher HOC than any other turfgrass I know. However, it is probably not the best choice as a mono-culture except in a semi-arid or arid climate. but then again I have yet to see a good monoculture turfgrass.

The key to fescue surviving heavy traffic is good course design coupled with proper traffic management. If the reaction to fescue struggling is to increase nutrient inputs then this would be poor management from a fescue angle.

MClutterbuck,

From his quote it is obvious RTJII does not understand much about fescue.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2015, 04:43:53 PM »
what are the advantages? I think the disadvantage is that it doesn"t stand up to cart traffic
yes true as in Erin Hills appears to have been designed and built as a cart course that is now walking only, you can't make that stuff up

It's all about the golf!

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2015, 05:04:49 PM »


Fescue is very good where low nutrient input including water is required combined with free draining soil. It gives a very good playing surface at a higher HOC than any other turfgrass I know. However, it is probably not the best choice as a mono-culture except in a semi-arid or arid climate. but then again I have yet to see a good monoculture turfgrass.

The key to fescue surviving heavy traffic is good course design coupled with proper traffic management. If the reaction to fescue struggling is to increase nutrient inputs then this would be poor management from a fescue angle.

MClutterbuck,

From his quote it is obvious RTJII does not understand much about fescue.


Jon, have been following closely your recomendations. We had a 100 day drought with extremely low humidity, fed the fescue fairways very little nutrients and very little water. Even no water for a 30 day stretch, with 32 degree temperatures and windy conditions with extremely high evapo rates. We had good firm and fast conditions and the fescues are doing great.  Late summer, early fall, we got some dew and it all turned green and lush within days... Fescue has been the best decision so far, and huge environmentally. Oh, and we are as far apart to a maritime climate as you can think.




astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2015, 05:42:46 PM »
I think Jon explained what HOC was to me once on this board, but I can't remember and can't find the answer by googling or using the GCA search function. I can't be the only one on the board who doesn't know. I think it refers to how much stuff you have to put on the grass, but I'm not sure.
Don't they often have fescue on the british links courses? If so, those courses are indeed sandy from what I know, but don't seem particularly droughty. Same thing with the Bandon courses. I guess fescue does ok with a lot of rain too.
 

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses in North America are predomnitly fescue?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2015, 12:27:03 AM »
Sorry, HOC is 'Height Of Cut'. Fescue also does well in wetter climates but does not like wet feet so free draining is I think also key.

 MClutterbuck good to hear. Fescue is a great choice for arid climates.