Chambers Bay conditions update

[Jason Thurman]

RK has a point. Mike is pretty pretentious. His accent is about half a step from being foreign sounding enough that he could be a golf commentator.

[RJ_Daley]

I don't fault the USGA.  They have listened and tried to respond to the likes of some of we golf purists who harken our whimsy back to the old sod and have asked for more traditional golf conditions and more linksey courses.  They put Chambers and Erin into the rota along with many grow-in years of support for the fescue that we all fancied. 

Yet, I think it is fair to say that fescue has been a repeated failure at Chambers and just about everywhere else it is tried in North America, particularly the PNW and west coast.  It doesn't seem to be anything more than a climate and soil type issue compared to where fescue seems to thrive in GB&I.   I surely am no qualified to say that definitively.  But, it sure seems like a rapid poa invasion is an inevitablility that can't be managed. 

While the newer rebuilt greens at Chambers are much better than the older ones,  it seems to me that even if they converted them to some cultivar of Bent, poa would come into the sward faster than most bent facilities yield to the poa in other parts of the country.  So, even with 5-10 year old new bent greens, poa would likley be significant percentage of the sward, and they would be putting on broccoli top like greens of poa anyway, at this most prolific seed head growth period of the year. 

Maybe what we really need is a very intensive research and development in the turf seed botany field to find a new cultivar or new hybrid species of greens turf that will hold up to poa invasion and climate. 

At the end of the day, it is still a decent leader board.   So, may the best golfer win regardless of the conditions that are essentially the same for every other golfer in the field.  I'd still love to play Chambers from 6200 or so yards.... 

[David_Tepper]

Two guys from the senior tour broke par yesterday. What's the problem? 

[John Kavanaugh]

Truth is, there is only one Dan Lucas. Talent matters.

[David_Tepper]

Six (6!) amateurs made the cut. What's the problem?

[Bill Seitz]

Truth is, there is only one Dan Lucas. Talent matters.

I feel fortunate to have Dan Lucas as a superintendent every time I go to my home club, but he's not dealing with this mix of grass in the greens, but the fairways look great. I can sympathize with the players. Whenever I'm home in California playing public golf courses with a lot of poa annua, I know that sometimes I can hit a putt with the perfect speed and perfect read and it won't go in because the late afternoon flowering grass gets so bumpy. It gets in your head. It's hard to stand over a putt with any confidence in that situation. But, same for everyone. Lowest score wins. Suck it up and deal with it.

[Matthew Essig]

Michael Putnam, a local who lives a mile from the course, loves the course and has played it 100 times. But he, too, is disappointed with the greens. He calls for a transition to all poa greens.


 http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/local-resident-putnam-calls-change-chambers-greens/?cid=facebook-gc-a-local-resident-putnam-calls-change-chambers-greens-061915

Even I am a little disappointed with how bumpy the greens are. The greens could be reseeded every 7-8 years, but I see all poa greens as the best solution, as well.


Want are the cons?
Would the slower green speeds thus taller cuts that are required with the slopes cause all poa greens to be even bumpier than it is now?

[Greg Chambers]

Matthew,


They won't be able to keep the poa out of the fescue greens.  Even if the greens were bent, they'll lose the battle eventually.  But they'd be better right now if they had been seeded to bent.  It's obvious that fescue greens was the wrong decision.

[John Kirk]

I walked around the course today between 5:00 and 8:30 this evening.

In person, the course looks magnificent, and the greens were putting nicely.

It's really a night and day difference in perception when you are there in person.  It's true that some greens have lots of poa when carefully analyzed.  In person the putts roll faster than they appear on television.  Because of the severity of the property, spectators aren't allowed much freedom to find a good vantage point, so watching golf shots up close was tough.

Since I made a comment this morning that the greens looked bumpy under the microscope of television, I thought I'd contrast that with my personal observations on the course, where the course was impressive and beautiful.

[Garland Bayley]

I walked around the course today between 5:00 and 8:30 this evening.

In person, the course looks magnificent, and the greens were putting nicely.

It's really a night and day difference in perception when you are there in person.  It's true that some greens have lots of poa when carefully analyzed.  In person the putts roll faster than they appear on television.  Because of the severity of the property, spectators aren't allowed much freedom to find a good vantage point, so watching golf shots up close was tough.

Since I made a comment this morning that the greens looked bumpy under the microscope of television, I thought I'd contrast that with my personal observations on the course, where the course was impressive and beautiful.

I hate to admit it, but Pat Mucci makes a good point when he keeps asking, "Have you played the course?"



Playing this course is not going to give you much of an impression that you are in a gravel mine. Instead it is going to give you decisions and shots to make and occupy your attention. If your attention needs occupying there is plenty of gorgeous scenery to occupy it. Putting on the greens has been no more or less smooth that at my club. However, the fescue greens are slower than the poa anua greens at my course.

[Jon Wiggett]

However, the fescue greens are slower than the poa anua greens at my course.

Garland,

is this a good or bad thing?

[Pat Burke]

I do not understand the years of build up, course changes, maintenance investments,
and the overall costly primping, just to basically kill, or nearly kill the greens, and leave
portions of the fairways and surrounds close to failure?
Quick spending years and resources dolling the courses up, and just turn the water off a month before the tournament so the greens are dead, the fairways are baked, and depending on the site, water the ass deep rough, or let the wispy stuff turn to brown hay. 
Could have a handful of workers killing the course in preparation for the Open

[Jon Wiggett]

I do not understand the years of build up, course changes, maintenance investments,
and the overall costly primping, just to basically kill, or nearly kill the greens, and leave
portions of the fairways and surrounds close to failure?
Quick spending years and resources dolling the courses up, and just turn the water off a month before the tournament so the greens are dead, the fairways are baked, and depending on the site, water the ass deep rough, or let the wispy stuff turn to brown hay. 
Could have a handful of workers killing the course in preparation for the Open

Pat,

most major golf set ups almost kill the course and are unsustainable over any length of time. Only the Open Championship is an exception to this.

Jon

[Ben Attwood]

I think it's really healthy to create the perception that you can 'turn off the taps' (which actually means let nature take it's course) and still have a world class course.

To say to the average club that your course doesn't have to look like Augusta year round and you can turn off the taps is great. It makes the munis look better and can only encourage participation. It may even be more fun...

[jeffwarne]

I do not understand the years of build up, course changes, maintenance investments,
and the overall costly primping, just to basically kill, or nearly kill the greens, and leave
portions of the fairways and surrounds close to failure?
Quick spending years and resources dolling the courses up, and just turn the water off a month before the tournament so the greens are dead, the fairways are baked, and depending on the site, water the ass deep rough, or let the wispy stuff turn to brown hay. 
Could have a handful of workers killing the course in preparation for the Open

God forbid they just play the course chosen as it is played every other year/weekend.
Lots of salaries to justify though.

[Ruediger Meyer]

From Geoff Ogilvy:


https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/chambers-bay-greens-perfectly-fine-says-ogilvy-051859387--golf.html

Will, thanks for posting this...Ogilvy says it perfectly again.

While I like Geoff, and appreciate his sentiment, I'm not sure why someone like Ernie would call them the worst in his 25 year career if they are not among the worst.

Well, it is still the same Ernie Els who completely botched the redesign of Wentworth. When it comes to architecture I tend to trust Ogilvy more than Els

[Craig Sweet]

By this time next week the course will be much greener.....but like I have been saying all week long, what will the long term mean for the fescue greens? I have to believe it would be cheaper, and easier, to put in bent greens and manage to keep the poa out, than it would be to continue with the fescue.   

[Garland Bayley]

However, the fescue greens are slower than the poa anua greens at my course.

Garland,

is this a good or bad thing?

Just stating a fact. No judgement intended.

[Jon Wiggett]

By this time next week the course will be much greener.....but like I have been saying all week long, what will the long term mean for the fescue greens? I have to believe it would be cheaper, and easier, to put in bent greens and manage to keep the poa out, than it would be to continue with the fescue.

Craig,

can you explain this fetish for monoculture swards as it seems plain stupid to me? (comment not aimed at you)

It would be cheaper and easier to keep the fescue as part of a mixture of grasses in the sward. The most expensive greens to maintain in my experience are agrostis palustris poa is somewhat cheaper and a mixed sward of festuca rubra, Agrostis tenuis & poa annua the cheapest.

Jon

[Will MacEwen]

From Geoff Ogilvy:


https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/chambers-bay-greens-perfectly-fine-says-ogilvy-051859387--golf.html

Will, thanks for posting this...Ogilvy says it perfectly again.

While I like Geoff, and appreciate his sentiment, I'm not sure why someone like Ernie would call them the worst in his 25 year career if they are not among the worst.

Well, it is still the same Ernie Els who completely botched the redesign of Wentworth. When it comes to architecture I tend to trust Ogilvy more than Els

Is this an architecture issue or a maintenance issue?

Els is making an observation based on his playing career, which easily dwarfs that of Ogilvy in every possible measure.  I don't see his work at Wentworth or any other course as being relevant.

Only on this site would Ernie Els' opinion on the US Open be immediately dismissed because he apparently lacks credibility.

[Jon Wiggett]

Will,

I would also not dismiss Els' opinion but would say that Ogilvy makes a few very good points. At the end of the day it is the same for everybody and it is hard to feel sorry for pampered professionals. Some of them really need to get a life.

Interesting comment of Westwood's saying 18 was a terrible par 4 but a great par 5.

Jon

[Ben Lovett]

Jon
Interesting point about the Open.
Are the R&A the leaders in hosting sustainable golf tournaments?
I've recently listened to an R&A talk on what they do and am very impressed with what they achieve can the USGA say the same thing?

[Craig Sweet]

By this time next week the course will be much greener.....but like I have been saying all week long, what will the long term mean for the fescue greens? I have to believe it would be cheaper, and easier, to put in bent greens and manage to keep the poa out, than it would be to continue with the fescue.

Craig,

can you explain this fetish for monoculture swards as it seems plain stupid to me? (comment not aimed at you)

It would be cheaper and easier to keep the fescue as part of a mixture of grasses in the sward. The most expensive greens to maintain in my experience are agrostis palustris poa is somewhat cheaper and a mixed sward of festuca rubra, Agrostis tenuis & poa annua the cheapest.

Jon

I can explain anything....

[Jon Wiggett]

By this time next week the course will be much greener.....but like I have been saying all week long, what will the long term mean for the fescue greens? I have to believe it would be cheaper, and easier, to put in bent greens and manage to keep the poa out, than it would be to continue with the fescue.

Craig,

can you explain this fetish for monoculture swards as it seems plain stupid to me? (comment not aimed at you)

It would be cheaper and easier to keep the fescue as part of a mixture of grasses in the sward. The most expensive greens to maintain in my experience are agrostis palustris poa is somewhat cheaper and a mixed sward of festuca rubra, Agrostis tenuis & poa annua the cheapest.

Jon

I can explain anything....

Ah, the reply of a man who knows the 'snake oil' is fake me thinks

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon
Interesting point about the Open.
Are the R&A the leaders in hosting sustainable golf tournaments?
I've recently listened to an R&A talk on what they do and am very impressed with what they achieve can the USGA say the same thing?

Ben,

really all they do is tweak the maintenance program but no dramatic changes as is seen in other majors. Now the set up of the course is a different matter.

Jon