[MCirba]

For some time now I've wanted to write an article extolling all of the reasons why making the game more women - focused is the key to growth and economic stability of the industry and golf courses in particular.

Nice to see others in the industry are recognizing this as well.   I would argue that it's not just course setup, but golf course architecture that needs to get ahead of this trend.   


https://www.pga.org/articles/setting-golf-courses-success-collaborative-guidebook-debuts

[MCirba]

I'll see if I can't get a copy of the articles in question posted here, or perhaps one of our friends in the PGA might be able to provide the content here.

[Benjamin Litman]

I'm (obviously) with you, Mike, and look forward to your article.

This week is a big week for both women golfers (and women athletes in general, with the World Cup going on at the same time) and golf-course architecture (Westchester CC playing to 6,670 yards!), so let's hope the event draws the attention it deserves.

[John Kavanaugh]

How many times a year do you think a woman with a career and children can play?  How is a single mother going to play?  Women have tough enough lives without trying to be a golfer. This is just another waste of energy and resources. 

[Jud_T]

How many times a year do you think a woman with a career and children can play? 

Uh, about as often as a man with a career and children can play...fyi- children have been known to play the game on occasion as well...

[John Kavanaugh]

How many times a year do you think a woman with a career and children can play? 

Uh, about as often as a man with a career and children can play...fyi- children have been known to play the game on occasion as well...

Sure, just like all the women who's husbands that don't golf join Kingsley. That's another factor, a woman golfer has to marry a golfer.

[MCirba]

John Kavanaugh,

In the New World Order, if women don't play golf, neither will men.  

Thanks for stirring the pot.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I know a ton of guys who left their families because of golf.  Almost all the raters I know. A woman can't do that and keep golfing because she is suddenly a single mother.  In all aspects of life it's harder for women to be an asshole. To be a serious golfer that supports the industry in a sustaining manner you've got to be an asshole to somebody.

[MCirba]

John,

That (I think) is my point.   Unless golf can become a family activity it's going to continue to decline.

Women make nearly all of the economic decisions for the family, including recreation.

[John Kavanaugh]

John Kavanaugh,

In the New World Order, if women don't play golf, neither will men.  

Thanks for stirring the pot.  

Yes I agree. Golf is also so expensive I can't imagine paying for two everytime I play. My sons won't be golfers in the vein as me.

[MCirba]

It has to become less expensive.  I know that sounds silly.

[Matt Frey, PGA]

I'll see if I can't get a copy of the articles in question posted here, or perhaps one of our friends in the PGA might be able to provide the content here.

Mike: Give me a shout via email about what types of articles and/or information you may be looking for and I'll see what I may be able to dig up.

[BCowan]

John,

That (I think) is my point.   Unless golf can become a family activity it's going to continue to decline.

Women make nearly all of the economic decisions for the family, including recreation.

  I disagree with you completely.  You seem to be echoing what all the big consulting firms say, which i feel hurt clubs even more.  Almost all private clubs have a family model.  There isn't enough different models imo.  Many guys can't justify to their wives $5,000-15,000 a year memberships anymore.  A guy can justify to his wife a Single membership for $2000-2500 much easier than trying to convince her to use the CCFAD facilities for a 5,000-15,000 a year membership to get their moneys worth.  A true single membership model allows a bigger pool of people to justify joining a club IMO.  The old days of the pro making his living on the range are over except at my course (failed progressive policies of course never get evaluated). I only know 2 woman my age who have private memberships.  They both played college golf and do well in their own job.    

I have a story that relates to this subject beautifully.  My dad has always bought his suits and other nice apparel at a Men's store in the burb he lives in.  The owner of the family store was doing well, so he decided to open a woman's clothing store next door.  After a year or two my dad asked how the store was going, he said well Bob sales are really good, but the problem is the woman return 70% of the stuff they buy.  He shortly after closed the store down.  Woman have no idea what they want, and you are turning to them to SAVE GOLF.  

[MCirba]

Here's the sort of future I was talking about Ben. 

The clubs will always have their place but that's not where the game is ever going to become revitalized again.   As you point out, the cost model won't sustain it.

http://lebanonsportsbuzz.com/2012/06/20/hamlin-golf-club-is-reinbolds-dream-realized/

[Tom_Doak]

Mike Cirba:

I have thought the same for a long time.  Women are the only demographic in golf that has a real opportunity to expand significantly in number.  And if women come to the golf course more, so will their kids, who have been missing in equal numbers.

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of men in golf who don't want to see it happen.

[jeffwarne]

Mike Cirba:

I have thought the same for a long time.  Women are the only demographic in golf that has a real opportunity to expand significantly in number.  And if women come to the golf course more, so will their kids, who have been missing in equal numbers.

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of men in golf who don't want to see it happen.

Wouldn't clubs have to do some financial  restructuring if suddenly prime time tee times were in demand by all the previously nonplaying spouses?
If there are 400 members and that works froma play standpoint, and suddenly 300 nonplaying spouses take advantage of their family membership during prime time, won't that alter the model at many places?

[MCirba]

Mike Cirba:

I have thought the same for a long time.  Women are the only demographic in golf that has a real opportunity to expand significantly in number.  And if women come to the golf course more, so will their kids, who have been missing in equal numbers.

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of men in golf who don't want to see it happen.

Tom,

You're correct on all counts.  

Whether we men like it or not, the fact is that women will continue to grow and even dominate over time as an economic force, controlling to a great degree the spending decisions in families,  and golf can provide the type of social, sporting, and even family positive atmosphere that many of them connect with.

However, the industry is slow to recognize the potential and many women feel they aren't wanted, or merely tolerated.   If I owned a course I wouldn't let men play before 11am!    

Seriously, watching my wife go through the process of learning the game the past couple of years has been an education in the good and bad of golf and golf courses as relates to women.

[Jason Thurman]

After almost 600 years of golf, I think we can say safely that the game doesn't appeal to women on as wide a level as it does men. Plenty of women play the game casually, and a small percentage play the game seriously. For the women who don't play, it's not like golf is some secret that they're waiting to be let in on. They just aren't that into it.

The key to the future of golf is simple: Take a kid to play.

I do love threads like this, as they let me in on a world that I feel very disconnected from otherwise. I have a wife who doesn't even remotely care how much golf I play or how much I spend on it as long as there's no expectation that she's ever going to start playing, but I live in an area where every course is packed to the gills all the time and I can't stand fighting through the hoards of people to make a tee time. It's sort of a waste of a great wife if you're married to her while living in a city where golf doesn't need her to save it.

[BCowan]

Mike Cirba:

I have thought the same for a long time.  Women are the only demographic in golf that has a real opportunity to expand significantly in number.  And if women come to the golf course more, so will their kids, who have been missing in equal numbers.

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of men in golf who don't want to see it happen.

Wouldn't clubs have to do some financial  restructuring if suddenly prime time tee times were in demand by all the previously nonplaying spouses?
If there are 400 members and that works froma play standpoint, and suddenly 300 nonplaying spouses take advantage of their family membership during prime time, won't that alter the model at many places?

Jeff,

   Do you know of any clubs that allow a married couple to pay double dues in order to play golf with each other on a weekend morning?  All the focus of private golf is the first 2 or 3 hours on the weekend mornings, which is destine for failure due to more woman working, thus they can't play during the weekday mornings.  

[Daryl David]

Mike Cirba:

I have thought the same for a long time.  Women are the only demographic in golf that has a real opportunity to expand significantly in number.  And if women come to the golf course more, so will their kids, who have been missing in equal numbers.

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of men in golf who don't want to see it happen.

Wouldn't clubs have to do some financial  restructuring if suddenly prime time tee times were in demand by all the previously nonplaying spouses?
If there are 400 members and that works froma play standpoint, and suddenly 300 nonplaying spouses take advantage of their family membership during prime time, won't that alter the model at many places?

Jeff,

   Do you know of any clubs that allow a married couple to pay double dues in order to play golf with each other on a weekend morning?  All the focus of private golf is the first 2 or 3 hours on the weekend mornings, which is destine for failure due to more woman working, thus they can't play during the weekday mornings.  

The model that is sometimes called a "members club" does exactly that. I know of several. They have no family memberships. If both spouses want to belong and play together, they both buy memberships and pay full dues.  I know a few couples that do that.

[Brent Hutto]

I do love threads like this, as they let me in on a world that I feel very disconnected from otherwise. I have a wife who doesn't even remotely care how much golf I play or how much I spend on it as long as there's no expectation that she's ever going to start playing, but I live in an area where every course is packed to the gills all the time and I can't stand fighting through the hoards of people to make a tee time. It's sort of a waste of a great wife if you're married to her while living in a city where golf doesn't need her to save it.

And in turn, now you're describing a world I have no connection with. In April or May there are a couple of public courses around here that get fully booked on weekend morning and a few of the private clubs get crowded, say, during the weekend before the Masters. But our area is so overbuilt and golf participation has tanked so badly over the past decade that there's pretty much no constraint being pushed when club allow both spouses and even a kid or two to play on a Saturday.

[JJShanley]

OT, but I'll say it anyway.  My mother and father (both retired, who have a good, stable, solid marriage) once had an argument about something or other in the aftermath of his getting back from the golf one Saturday.

[Paraphrasing from memory.]
D: You're just bitter that I go out to the golf every Saturday.
M: No.  I'm delighted that you play golf.  It gets you out from under my feet for the morning, so I get plenty done.  You can play as often as you like.  I'd pay if necessary.  Don't stop.
D: ...

Mother has no interest in playing golf, but will watch the Masters and the Open each year.

[jeffwarne]

Mike Cirba:

I have thought the same for a long time.  Women are the only demographic in golf that has a real opportunity to expand significantly in number.  And if women come to the golf course more, so will their kids, who have been missing in equal numbers.

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of men in golf who don't want to see it happen.

Wouldn't clubs have to do some financial  restructuring if suddenly prime time tee times were in demand by all the previously nonplaying spouses?
If there are 400 members and that works froma play standpoint, and suddenly 300 nonplaying spouses take advantage of their family membership during prime time, won't that alter the model at many places?

Jeff,

   Do you know of any clubs that allow a married couple to pay double dues in order to play golf with each other on a weekend morning?  All the focus of private golf is the first 2 or 3 hours on the weekend mornings, which is destine for failure due to more woman working, thus they can't play during the weekday mornings.  

Is there a GCA translator?
I'll take a stab.
At Southampton, you can buy a family or a single membership.
If suddenly everyone converted to family and the wives all played at peak times, the numbers would no longer work and weekends would be unbearable-it's close now.
At The Bridge your membership allows you and your spouse to be full members-If 175 spouses suddenly took up golf we'd have a hell of a time on peak weekend mornings, and our model would no longer work.
 

[Brent Hutto]

Mike Cirba:

I have thought the same for a long time.  Women are the only demographic in golf that has a real opportunity to expand significantly in number.  And if women come to the golf course more, so will their kids, who have been missing in equal numbers.

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of men in golf who don't want to see it happen.

Wouldn't clubs have to do some financial  restructuring if suddenly prime time tee times were in demand by all the previously nonplaying spouses?
If there are 400 members and that works froma play standpoint, and suddenly 300 nonplaying spouses take advantage of their family membership during prime time, won't that alter the model at many places?

Jeff,

   Do you know of any clubs that allow a married couple to pay double dues in order to play golf with each other on a weekend morning?  All the focus of private golf is the first 2 or 3 hours on the weekend mornings, which is destine for failure due to more woman working, thus they can't play during the weekday mornings.  

Is there a GCA translator?
I'll take a stab.
At Southampton, you can buy a family or a single membership.
If suddenly everyone converted to family and the wives all played at peak times, the numbers would no longer work and weekends would be unbearable-it's close now.
At The Bridge your membership allows you and your spouse to be full members-If 175 spouses suddenly took up golf we'd have a hell of a time on peak weekend mornings, and our model would no longer work.
 

But it's never going to happen. Or if it does it will be over a generation or two, not overnight.

Under any remotely realistic scenario, the "model" at a given club will have decades to adjust even if someone were to successfully attract hundreds of thousands of women to the game.

I would also submit that, to the extent any of this is about people worried about the viability of the game, by definition that worry does not apply to extremely expensive private clubs which are none the less fully subscribed at weekends.

[Jimmy Chandler]

I have a story that relates to this subject beautifully.  My dad has always bought his suits and other nice apparel at a Men's store in the burb he lives in.  The owner of the family store was doing well, so he decided to open a woman's clothing store next door.  After a year or two my dad asked how the store was going, he said well Bob sales are really good, but the problem is the woman return 70% of the stuff they buy.  He shortly after closed the store down.  Woman have no idea what they want, and you are turning to them to SAVE GOLF.  

Do you actually believe any of the (misspelled) drivel you post to this site? According to this supposed anecdote, no women's clothing stores anywhere would make money.

Whether or not increasing the participation of women in golf will help the industry, I have no idea. I have a gut feeling, but no evidence to back it up. You also have no idea what you're talking about, but choose to opine anyway.

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