The key to the future of golf...is Women

[Jim_Kennedy]

They're doing something right in Germany.
http://www.golfclubmanagement.net/2013/09/germany-has-more-female-golfers-than-the-uk/

[BCowan]

I have a story that relates to this subject beautifully.  My dad has always bought his suits and other nice apparel at a Men's store in the burb he lives in.  The owner of the family store was doing well, so he decided to open a woman's clothing store next door.  After a year or two my dad asked how the store was going, he said well Bob sales are really good, but the problem is the woman return 70% of the stuff they buy.  He shortly after closed the store down.  Woman have no idea what they want, and you are turning to them to SAVE GOLF.  

Do you actually believe any of the (misspelled) drivel you post to this site? According to this supposed anecdote, no women's clothing stores anywhere would make money.

Whether or not increasing the participation of women in golf will help the industry, I have no idea. I have a gut feeling, but no evidence to back it up. You also have no idea what you're talking about, but choose to opine anyway.

Jimmy,

I don't know who the hell u think you are, but you added nothing to this thread.  Did I imply no woman's stores made money.  It was analogy that woman are much harder to read than guys.  Most of us want a burger, great golf, and a beer.  This is a discussion page.  When u do opine ur opinion I'll be sure to jump all over it.

Ben

[BCowan]

Mike Cirba:

I have thought the same for a long time.  Women are the only demographic in golf that has a real opportunity to expand significantly in number.  And if women come to the golf course more, so will their kids, who have been missing in equal numbers.

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of men in golf who don't want to see it happen.

Wouldn't clubs have to do some financial  restructuring if suddenly prime time tee times were in demand by all the previously nonplaying spouses?
If there are 400 members and that works froma play standpoint, and suddenly 300 nonplaying spouses take advantage of their family membership during prime time, won't that alter the model at many places?

Jeff,

   Do you know of any clubs that allow a married couple to pay double dues in order to play golf with each other on a weekend morning?  All the focus of private golf is the first 2 or 3 hours on the weekend mornings, which is destine for failure due to more woman working, thus they can't play during the weekday mornings.  

Is there a GCA translator?
I'll take a stab.
At Southampton, you can buy a family or a single membership.
If suddenly everyone converted to family and the wives all played at peak times, the numbers would no longer work and weekends would be unbearable-it's close now.
At The Bridge your membership allows you and your spouse to be full members-If 175 spouses suddenly took up golf we'd have a hell of a time on peak weekend mornings, and our model would no longer work.

Jeff,

Is the family membership twice as much?  Or is it 15% more?  Using the Hamptons as a barometer is hardly just.  Our clubs weekend tee sheet is booked solid 7am-5pm.  People don't seem to mind.  Gca translater, lol.  I know reading common sense responses is looked down upon here

[Jim_Coleman]

     Here's one area where women have already arrived in the golf world.  If a club pro doesn't get along with the women at his club, he's not going to last very long.  Ask any club pro.

[Jason Thurman]

Ben, this is a little off-topic, but I'm curious and I think knowing the answer will help me read your posts more clearly, and it sounds like Jeff could use some of the same clarity that I'm searching for.

I know the singular form of "woman" is spelled the same as the plural form, as you have demonstrated in this thread and others over numerous posts in the last week. Some of my friends pronounce the two forms differently though, so I wanted to verify. Do you pronounce the singular form of "woman" differently from the plural form?

In other words, when you're telling someone "We had over 80 woman play in our Woman's Invitational," do you pronounce it "wuh-min" or "whim-in"? Some of my friends use the latter, but I'm hoping to hear that you use the former so that I can tell them they're incorrect, as much like you, I love telling people they're wrong.

[Steve Lang]

  Sometimes its hard to get women excited about golf  



sometimes not...

[JC Jones]

Jeff,

Is the family membership twice as much?  Or is it 15% more?  Using the Hamptons as a barometer is hardly just.  Our clubs weekend tee sheet is booked solid 7am-5pm.  People don't seem to mind.  Gca translater, lol.  I know reading common sense responses is looked down upon here

Ben,

Is it the reading of the common sense posts around here that is looked down upon or is it the writing of them?

Jason Thurman,

As you know, good spellers usually lack vision and common sense.

[MCirba]

Here are a few terrific articles done recently by the PGA trying to get in front of this potential growth opportunity.   

http://www.pgamagazinedigital.com/i/90106-nov-2012/50

http://www.myvirtualpaper.com/doc/Golfweek-Custom-Media/cwh_interactive_opt/2012102901/#0


I appreciate everyone's opinions here, thanks.

[Eric Strulowitz]

How many times a year do you think a woman with a career and children can play?  How is a single mother going to play?  Women have tough enough lives without trying to be a golfer. This is just another waste of energy and resources.  

Have to side with John here.

I am all for getting women playing the game.    There are a few ladies at my club I enjoy playing with plus   I am lucky to be married to a wonderful lady that loves sports, and will never turn down a chance to play 18 or 36.  But that is the exception.  I think increased female participation rates  will be hindered by the following:

1.  There are a lot more single moms out there than single dads.  Yes, where will a single mother have the time to play?.
2.  A lot of men want to keep women out.   The golf course is viewed as THEIR haven, not to be intruded upon.   I know a few guys that get very competitive with their wives, say they can't play with them, end up arguing .  How stupid.  I have not beat my wife once, not once!  
3.  I firmly believe that we are becoming increasingly matriarchal.   Everywhere you look, women are getting advanced degrees and assuming management positions.  They are going to night school or studying online , working long hours, and yet still expected to be the primary caregiver at home.  Men have not picked up the slack at home with two wage earners, this leaves many women tired and depressed, and heart disease was once not a major killer of women compared to men, it is now a major killer.  There  are a lot of supermoms out there, it takes its toll, so golf is a low low priority.
4.  As far as getting more young people involved, that is a pipe dream.  Kids are becoming increasing sedentary and spend hours upon hours texting and engaging in the various social media.   Golf is hard, you have to deal with a lot of rejection, and it takes a lot of practice and persistence.  With a limited attention span, kids today will not find enticing a sport that lacks the immediate gratification  that golf offers.
5.  Young people are being brought up with a mindset in the media and public education that rich is bad and people with a lot of money have a responsibility to share with those that have less.  Golfers are viewed as an elite demographic, whether that perception is true or not.  This will turn  young people off to the game, who will equate the game with those "selfish mean rich guys".
6.  We need to accept the possibility that women are probably wired differently than men when it comes to sports and competitive events.  I would like to believe we are equal and should be treated equally, but maybe there are really some genetic issues that cause men to gravitate toward sports and competition more than women.  Women have a nesting instinct that I do not believe men have.  We are different, maybe we needed to just acknowledge it and put political correctness aside.    Just don't see an huge influx of women no matter what we do.  Wish that was not the case, but my gut says that is the case.

Bottom line is the game will always be there in one form or another.  Growth will be flat or negative.  It takes a lot of guts to build a course from scratch, especially if it is not associated with real estate or a resort. Demographic and economic trends are not favorable for the growth of the game.  

[MCirba]

I'm hoping Lester George weighs in here to tell us about the economic model being tried at Independence Golf Club in VA.

[Josh Tarble]

6.  We need to accept the possibility that women are probably wired differently than men when it comes to sports and competitive events.  Just don't see an huge influx of women no matter what we do.  Wish that was not the case, but my gut says that is the case.

I think this may be more than most people know.  I know just from playing with my wife, she just likes to get out, have a nice stroll and maybe hit a few good shots.  Some are different, but that's relatively few.

Here's a pretty fun, interesting article (also about Bandon Resort to tie it into architecture) that I think gives a little insight into a lot of women's mentality.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-golf-buddy-trip-63-women-and-me-1423277334

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

How many times a year do you think a woman with a career and children can play?  How is a single mother going to play?  Women have tough enough lives without trying to be a golfer. This is just another waste of energy and resources. 

Have to side with John here.

I am all for getting women playing the game.    There are a few ladies at my club I enjoy playing with plus   I am lucky to be married to a wonderful lady that loves sports, and will never turn down a chance to play 18 or 36.  But that is the exception.  I think increased female participation rates  will be hindered by the following:

1.  There are a lot more single moms out there than single dads.  Yes, where will a single mother have the time to play?.
2.  A lot of men want to keep women out.   The golf course is viewed as THEIR haven, not to be intruded upon.   I know a few guys that get very competitive with their wives, say they can't play with them, end up arguing .  How stupid.  I have not beat my wife once, not once! 
3.  I firmly believe that we are becoming increasingly matriarchal.   Everywhere you look, women are getting advanced degrees and assuming management positions.  They are going to night school or studying online , working long hours, and yet still expected to be the primary caregiver at home.  Men have not picked up the slack at home with two wage earners, this leaves many women tired and depressed, and heart disease was once not a major killer of women compared to men, it is now a major killer.  There  are a lot of supermoms out there, it takes its toll, so golf is a low low priority.
4.  As far as getting more young people involved, that is a pipe dream.  Kids are becoming increasing sedentary and spend hours upon hours texting and engaging in the various social media.   Golf is hard, you have to deal with a lot of rejection, and it takes a lot of practice and persistence.  With a limited attention span, kids today will not find enticing a sport that lacks the immediate gratification that golf offers.
5.  Young people are being brought up with a mindset in the media and public education that rich is bad and people with a lot of money have a responsibility to share with those that have less.  Golfers are viewed as an elite demographic, whether that perception is true or not.  This will turn  young people off to the game, who will equate the game with those "selfish mean rich guys".
6.  We need to accept the possibility that women are probably wired differently than men when it comes to sports and competitive events.  Just don't see an huge influx of women no matter what we do.  Wish that was not the case, but my gut says that is the case.

Bottom line is the game will always be there in one form or another.  Growth will be flat or negative.  It takes a lot of guts to build a course from scratch, especially if it is not associated with real estate or a resort. Demographic and economic trends are not favorable for the growth of the game. 

Eric

To your point #5, I thought about this last night at the auction for the First Tee of St. Louis. A bunch of "rich" guys who collectively helped raise $125,000 to benefit a predominately underprivileged African American constituency. These kids were now moving on to  college,  coming mainly from single mother households. Some, including Joe Buck, gave $10,000 in the "just because" Fund a Need category. Nothing in return as far as auction items. In fact Joe bid on many items and then gave them away to the kids.

I sat and wondered where is the media at events like this that take place all over the country all throughout the year? Instead we get the stereotype of the "selfish mean rich guys" in golf.

[Eric Strulowitz]

How many times a year do you think a woman with a career and children can play?  How is a single mother going to play?  Women have tough enough lives without trying to be a golfer. This is just another waste of energy and resources. 

Have to side with John here.

I am all for getting women playing the game.    There are a few ladies at my club I enjoy playing with plus   I am lucky to be married to a wonderful lady that loves sports, and will never turn down a chance to play 18 or 36.  But that is the exception.  I think increased female participation rates  will be hindered by the following:

1.  There are a lot more single moms out there than single dads.  Yes, where will a single mother have the time to play?.
2.  A lot of men want to keep women out.   The golf course is viewed as THEIR haven, not to be intruded upon.   I know a few guys that get very competitive with their wives, say they can't play with them, end up arguing .  How stupid.  I have not beat my wife once, not once! 
3.  I firmly believe that we are becoming increasingly matriarchal.   Everywhere you look, women are getting advanced degrees and assuming management positions.  They are going to night school or studying online , working long hours, and yet still expected to be the primary caregiver at home.  Men have not picked up the slack at home with two wage earners, this leaves many women tired and depressed, and heart disease was once not a major killer of women compared to men, it is now a major killer.  There  are a lot of supermoms out there, it takes its toll, so golf is a low low priority.
4.  As far as getting more young people involved, that is a pipe dream.  Kids are becoming increasing sedentary and spend hours upon hours texting and engaging in the various social media.   Golf is hard, you have to deal with a lot of rejection, and it takes a lot of practice and persistence.  With a limited attention span, kids today will not find enticing a sport that lacks the immediate gratification that golf offers.
5.  Young people are being brought up with a mindset in the media and public education that rich is bad and people with a lot of money have a responsibility to share with those that have less.  Golfers are viewed as an elite demographic, whether that perception is true or not.  This will turn  young people off to the game, who will equate the game with those "selfish mean rich guys".
6.  We need to accept the possibility that women are probably wired differently than men when it comes to sports and competitive events.  Just don't see an huge influx of women no matter what we do.  Wish that was not the case, but my gut says that is the case.

Bottom line is the game will always be there in one form or another.  Growth will be flat or negative.  It takes a lot of guts to build a course from scratch, especially if it is not associated with real estate or a resort. Demographic and economic trends are not favorable for the growth of the game. 

Eric

To your point #5, I thought about this last night at the auction for the First Tee of St. Louis. A bunch of "rich" guys who collectively helped raise $125,000 to benefit a predominately underprivileged African American constituency. These kids were now moving on to  college,  coming mainly from single mother households. Some, including Joe Buck, gave $10,000 in the "just because" Fund a Need category. Nothing in return as far as auction items. In fact Joe bid on many items and then gave them away to the kids.

I sat and wondered where is the media at events like this that take place all over the country all throughout the year? Instead we get the stereotype of the "selfish mean rich guys" in golf.

I can't tell you how many charitable events I helped organize or participate in.  Golf has given hundreds of millions to worthwhile charities. 

And think of how many people the golf industry employs or supports indirectly .  We are not talking just courses, but equipment, resorts, food service, fertilizers, grass seed, landscaping services, etc.   

[Sean_A]

...and why is growing the game assumed to be critically important and positive for golf?  How would golf be better if in 15 years there were twice as many golfers on the planet and say 50% were women?

Ciao

[MCirba]

Sean,

By and large, the popularity of golf as a past time within a nation is a sign of a healthy peace-loving vibrant populace.

You are hereby sentenced to go back and read The Good Doctor for the next 24 hours young man! 

[Jud_T]

What many are missing here is pretty simple- women are not buying what we are offering them:

1.  They don't relish playing in front of a foursome of drunk, cigar smoking male hacks who blame them for slow play as the guys take their 10 practice swings and plumb bob on their way to shooting 105.

2.  They don't enjoy courses with no roll-out, no tees appropriate for their distance, forced carries and an aerial game.  They don't want to spend their entire day commuting, playing, eating and drinking.

3.  They may be more interested in social interaction than ultra competitive events.

4.  They probably don't care about gambling, cigars, drunks, sexist jokes and guys leering at them.

I've witnessed some very successful 9-hole inter club women's matches when they are free from the above.

Guys would be able to play a lot more golf if they embraced the wife and kids and didn't compartmentalize the game as solely a buddy's thing.

[BHoover]

...and why is growing the game assumed to be critically important and positive for golf?  How would golf be better if in 15 years there were twice as many golfers on the planet and say 50% were women?

Ciao

I'm all for more women playing golf, including my wife. So let me say that first. But these "grow the game" initiatives are tiring, because the only real reason to grow the game is to make money for the equipment manufacturers and some architects and others in the industry. They really have no interest, for the most part, in the game, just money.

[A.G._Crockett]

What many are missing here is pretty simple- women are not buying what we are offering them:

1.  They don't relish playing in front of a foursome of drunk, cigar smoking male hacks who blame them for slow play as the guys take their 10 practice swings and plumb bob on their way to shooting 105.

2.  They don't enjoy courses with no roll-out, no tees appropriate for their distance, forced carries and an aerial game.  They don't want to spend their entire day commuting, playing, eating and drinking.

3.  They may be more interested in social interaction than ultra competitive events.

4.  They probably don't care about gambling, cigars, drunks, sexist jokes and guys leering at them.

I've witnessed some very successful 9-hole inter club women's matches when they are free from the above.

Guys would be able to play a lot more golf if they embraced the wife and kids and didn't compartmentalize the game as solely a buddy's thing.

I not only agree with all of these, but will add one more.  (And think about it before you laugh or respond, ok?)

Women do not have the ability to randomly urinate wherever and whenever they choose, and golf courses are set up for the urinary tracts of men, not women.  I'm not kidding.

How many rounds of golf have you played in which you didn't walk over to the tree line and take a leak at least once during the round?  (For those of you that drink beer while you play, it could be several times during the round, right?)  If you don't think this is a big deal, then make a vow that you will only go in facilities with toilet paper and running water for each of the next 10 rounds you play.  You know; just as an experiment to see how the other 52% lives...

[Tom_Doak]

I'm all for more women playing golf, including my wife. So let me say that first. But these "grow the game" initiatives are tiring, because the only real reason to grow the game is to make money for the equipment manufacturers and architects and others in the industry. They really have no interest, for the most part, in the game, just money.

Speak for yourself.  I just think it's a better world [and a better GOLF world] if women are better represented.

Yes, there are many reasons why women don't play as much as men.  Some are rooted in historical gender roles, and some in discrimination.  Some could be overcome if there were more focus on fast, nine-hole rounds of golf.  That's what it's going to take to get men to play more, too, incidentally -- time is the biggest handicap for everyone these days.

[BHoover]

I'm all for more women playing golf, including my wife. So let me say that first. But these "grow the game" initiatives are tiring, because the only real reason to grow the game is to make money for the equipment manufacturers and architects and others in the industry. They really have no interest, for the most part, in the game, just money.

Speak for yourself.  I just think it's a better world [and a better GOLF world] if women are better represented.

Yes, there are many reasons why women don't play as much as men.  Some are rooted in historical gender roles, and some in discrimination.  Some could be overcome if there were more focus on fast, nine-hole rounds of golf.  That's what it's going to take to get men to play more, too, incidentally -- time is the biggest handicap for everyone these days.

I would have thought I couldn't have been any clearer when I said I'm all for women playing more golf. I thought that was pretty obvious.

And I agree with what you're saying about the history of discrimination in the game. I also am all in favor of women being better represented. But let's be honest, there are some stakeholders who care about their profits, which is why they want to "grow the game".

[Tom_Doak]

But let's be honest, there are some stakeholders who care about their profits, which is why they want to "grow the game".

Sure, there are some, perhaps many.  But the way you said it you pretty much lumped us all together, and I can assure you that not everyone in golf is in it for the $$$.

[BHoover]

But let's be honest, there are some stakeholders who care about their profits, which is why they want to "grow the game".

Sure, there are some, perhaps many.  But the way you said it you pretty much lumped us all together, and I can assure you that not everyone in golf is in it for the $$$.

That wasn't my intent, so I apologize if that's how it came across. I qualified my first post to avoid confusion.

For now, I don't have time to debate further...need to get ready for the Cavs game!

[John Kavanaugh]

Cav's game?  Look me up. 111 row 25. I'm the fat guy with a NSW shirt on.

[Eric Strulowitz]

What many are missing here is pretty simple- women are not buying what we are offering them:

1.  They don't relish playing in front of a foursome of drunk, cigar smoking male hacks who blame them for slow play as the guys take their 10 practice swings and plumb bob on their way to shooting 105.

2.  They don't enjoy courses with no roll-out, no tees appropriate for their distance, forced carries and an aerial game.  They don't want to spend their entire day commuting, playing, eating and drinking.

3.  They may be more interested in social interaction than ultra competitive events.

4.  They probably don't care about gambling, cigars, drunks, sexist jokes and guys leering at them.

I've witnessed some very successful 9-hole inter club women's matches when they are free from the above.

Guys would be able to play a lot more golf if they embraced the wife and kids and didn't compartmentalize the game as solely a buddy's thing.

I not only agree with all of these, but will add one more.  (And think about it before you laugh or respond, ok?)

Women do not have the ability to randomly urinate wherever and whenever they choose, and golf courses are set up for the urinary tracts of men, not women.  I'm not kidding.

How many rounds of golf have you played in which you didn't walk over to the tree line and take a leak at least once during the round?  (For those of you that drink beer while you play, it could be several times during the round, right?)  If you don't think this is a big deal, then make a vow that you will only go in facilities with toilet paper and running water for each of the next 10 rounds you play.  You know; just as an experiment to see how the other 52% lives...

Hi A.G.

At first, I discounted your comments as ridiculous, but then showed your post to my wife and she agreed 100%.

The feedback I got was that for women, they like to empty their bladders in clean, private surroundings, they like to wash their hands and feel clean, they like to feel safe and secure in their environment.  Whereas, men basically whip it out and just do it.  My wife said that yes, this is something that is in the mind of a lot of women, but they would not come out and say it.  So maybe you are on to something here.

I am well traveled, been throughout Europe and Asia, and perhaps no other country makes a big deal about a human being emptying their bladder, for crying out loud it is a normal and vital biological function.  It is common place outside the US to see cars pulled over and people in the woods , male and female, relieving them selves.  They are not doing it for any other function than rid their body of waste products, exhibitionism or lewdness not even in the equation.  

A few years ago, there was a man who was at a course in the south , he had to relieve himself bad.  He found a discreet spot, or so he thought.  A woman on her porch observed this, called the police, the guy was busted.  In court, it came out that he had congestive heart failure and he took Lasix every morning, and when he had to go , he had to go.  It did him no good, he was found guilty of public indecency, he was put on the sex offenders list, and we all know what that does to ones life, it is ruined for all intents and purposes.  

We Americans make peeing a big deal.  You should always be discreet, never in view of homes, children, etc.  But the rare event comes and you gotta go, you gotta go.  This weighs on women a lot more than men I am sure.  Maybe we need less fancy bathrooms and more portable "Johns".

Insightful post.

[Mark Pavy]

 Some could be overcome if there were more focus on fast, nine-hole rounds of golf.  That's what it's going to take to get men to play more, too, incidentally -- time is the biggest handicap for everyone these days.

That is correct. It's not just about getting more women playing golf, the key is providing a golfing experience that appeals to the roughly 95% of the population that don't play golf.