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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
BTW, Mike, I feel your pain!  I did have breakfast with a well known construction guy the other day, and talked of CC in particular, because they are doing the new course in Dallas.  Even mentioned your longstanding concerns you have with a particular Georgia bunker.......he acknowledged Bill started with little concerns other than artistic ones, but says he has had to learn and now considers the other practical matters to a greater degree.  Don't shoot the messenger, it was one man's opinion, but one who should know.

In some cases, I get more frustrated when I see newbs come into the business with little training, and no one seems to care if they really understand the basics of drainage, turf, circulation, etc.  For whatever reason, a lot of folks just don't seem to think a good solid resume of successful projects is the way to hire a golf course architect.

But then, I guess we all get frustrated with not getting all the projects we think we should.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't see those requirements affecting greens and bunker designs......JMO

I understand.

But, again, it isn't up to you to make that call.

It's up to a board with the statutory authority vested unto it, with other powers noted earlier.
Sorry but in reading what you wrote, I don't see it affecting greens and bunkers...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
BTW, Mike, I feel your pain!  I did have breakfast with a well known construction guy the other day, and talked of CC in particular, because they are doing the new course in Dallas.  Even mentioned your longstanding concerns you have with a particular Georgia bunker.......he acknowledged Bill started with little concerns other than artistic ones, but says he has had to learn and now considers the other practical matters to a greater degree.  Don't shoot the messenger, it was one man's opinion, but one who should know.


JB,
I think yo man is right...I was at OTC today and those are some really good bunkers...I agree with your thought process above but if one were not a signature he may not have gotten a chance to improve.... :) :) :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
BTW, Mike, I feel your pain!  I did have breakfast with a well known construction guy the other day, and talked of CC in particular, because they are doing the new course in Dallas.  Even mentioned your longstanding concerns you have with a particular Georgia bunker.......he acknowledged Bill started with little concerns other than artistic ones, but says he has had to learn and now considers the other practical matters to a greater degree.  Don't shoot the messenger, it was one man's opinion, but one who should know.

In some cases, I get more frustrated when I see newbs come into the business with little training, and no one seems to care if they really understand the basics of drainage, turf, circulation, etc.  For whatever reason, a lot of folks just don't seem to think a good solid resume of successful projects is the way to hire a golf course architect.

Jeff, who is this well known "construction guy"?   I think it only fair that you use his name if you are going to call out the architect. 
Mike, How many times are you going to post about this course and this exact subject?

Say what you want about the younger generation but at least most of them are honarable enough to use their own words to make their case, not un named sources and a wink when we all know the golf course and design team you are talking about.   If you have something to say, say it and own it.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Don,

I don't think its fair at all to use a name who related something in private conversation.  If you want it, contact me off line. Nor do I think relating that an architect is getting better at drainage calling out anyone.  Quite the opposite, especially when he has a team of others in place trying to take care of what he prefers not to.  Most firms are that way, really.

Plus, as I understood the conversation, Bill actually told him he always preferred to focus on the art and the play.

I highly doubt we can cast the entire generation of younger (or older) architects as being white hat guys.

To be honest, I really did nothing wrong at all, but I am not surprised I have somehow offended you. Nor has Mike, for that matter, even if I agree with you, as I have heard him speak of this one bunker for a quite a few years now!  It really is wrong, construction wise, but for the client to decide if they want to continue to fix washouts to enforce the CC vision, or change it in the next bunker renovation.  I know most of my clients would advocate changing any hard to maintain (and maintain the integrity) design.  Some wouldn't even ask me.....

Say what you will about the 50-60's guys, they never let water drain in a bunker, at least not that I have seen.  At some point in the 1980's, whether because some came into the business without design or construction training (i.e. pros, but also land planners and others) or there were simply too many courses being built for experienced construction personnel t be on all of them, or we all thought we had enough money to fool or control mother nature, I noticed more experimentation or ignoring of long held "good practices."

Oh this specific topic, I have been guilty of letting a lot of water drain from high mounds into my bunkers from the back.  I have seen the results - add Better Billy Bunker or similar to make the design work.  Where less money flows, I see the turf shouldn't extend more than a few feet above the sand, the sand ought to be flatter, and maybe there should just be one constant ridge above the bunker. Whenever there are ridges and valleys, the drainage collects in the valleys, and accelerates into the bunker, washing out sand.

So, we all need to keep relearning the basics I guess.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Don,
Did not realize I had posted about this subject before.  The actual course was not the center of my discussion but used as an example to explain the question.  I don't feel it is correct to name the course since one either knows it or they don't.  AND It's a great golf course which I enjoy.  Also, I have no problem owning anything I say on this site or anywhere else.  Also not saying I've never screwed up a bunker or whatever.  My intention was to show where sigs get leeway and others don't.  Anyone who sees them would agree.  BUT today the same guys bunkers are exceptional. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"