[Sean_A]

Brent

The trend toward longer courses is exactly what one would expect to happen if medal play and more challenging are mixed.  Although, I have never quite figured out why people place such an emphasis on medal VS matchplay courses.  A course is either good or not.  It doesn't make any difference if I am using a pencil. 

Ciao     

Do you like quirk?
The emphasis on medal play courses is to remove any semblance of quirk.
The emphasis on medal play is to remove fun stances and shots.
Who wants to play a steady diet of medal play courses? Not me.
Winged Foot West has to be less fun than Pennard.

GJ

As I said, a good course is a good course.  One should not evaluate the quality of the course by the method of scoring.  Pennard is exactly the same course if one uses a pencil or not.  If you enjoy it, great.  If not, move on to something else...the course doesn't mind.

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

Brent

The trend toward longer courses is exactly what one would expect to happen if medal play and more challenging are mixed.  Although, I have never quite figured out why people place such an emphasis on medal VS matchplay courses.  A course is either good or not.  It doesn't make any difference if I am using a pencil. 

Ciao     

Do you like quirk?
The emphasis on medal play courses is to remove any semblance of quirk.
The emphasis on medal play is to remove fun stances and shots.
Who wants to play a steady diet of medal play courses? Not me.
Winged Foot West has to be less fun than Pennard.

GJ

As I said, a good course is a good course.  One should not evaluate the quality of the course by the method of scoring.  Pennard is exactly the same course if one uses a pencil or not.  If you enjoy it, great.  If not, move on to something else...the course doesn't mind.

Ciao

A good course is not a good course. A good course can be a very bad course. It's all relative to the players, and their likes and desires.

The worst course I played recently is Saunton East. How on earth did it get so high on the Doak scale? For that matter, how on earth was it ever considered better than the west course? Clearly Saunton East is a a course modified for the pencil golfer. The best course I played recently is St. Enodoc, although it has undergone some recent modifications for the pencil golfer on the last few holes, it still has it's unique character that makes it great for match play. It needs to be protected from the pencil golfer, who would do something about the 10th hole problem.

[Mark Pearce]

I agree with Sean about the artificial distinction between medal and match play courses.  It just isn't a distinction a British golfer would recognise.  As to Garland equating the distinction with quirk, that simply doesn't hold up.  Elie has as much quirk as I have seen anywhere.  It works fine for Strokeplay.  Northumberland is relatively quirk free.  Narrow fairways and thick rough together with frequent wind can make medals a chore.

[Sean_A]

Well GJ, if Saunton East is the worst course you have played lately you are walking in high cotton. 

You have mastered Double Dutch.

A good course is not a good course. A good course can be a very bad course.


Mark

Yes, my thoughts are similar.  Medal play often is related to pro golf and clubs get the trickle down effect.  It is usually the case that the same course in the hands of the handicap player doesn't make any sense. Isn't this why Stableford was invented?  I thought the Doctor lamented the time it took for Medals and devised a scoring system to quicken the pace.  Maybe its time we look for another new scoring system 

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

I agree with Sean about the artificial distinction between medal and match play courses.  It just isn't a distinction a British golfer would recognise.  As to Garland equating the distinction with quirk, that simply doesn't hold up.  Elie has as much quirk as I have seen anywhere.  It works fine for Strokeplay.  Northumberland is relatively quirk free.  Narrow fairways and thick rough together with frequent wind can make medals a chore.

Every course works fine for stroke play. You count the strokes, you add the total, you are done. That doesn't mean that the medal players find it ideal.
Why does Dr. MacKenzie lament the fact that medal players often degrade golf courses, such as was done at Saunton East, by removing the character so they can score more consistently? Without the need for total score match play does not promote the removal of such character.
Why was the issue of seeing the bottom of the flag stick such an issue between Tom and Jack when they built Sebonack?
Would you rather the medal player got his way and put every flag stick in full view?

[Sean_A]

I don't necessarily think the "medal" player should get his way.  But I also don't think medal scoring makes any architectural demands...golfers do...and many golfers play medal...the two should not be used as if they are the same thing.  Every course can't be a Perranporth, nor should we wish or expect that to be the case.

I don't know what you think happened at Saunton, but you do realize a little skirmish called WWII had a bit to do with how and why the design is as we see it today.  There was no sinister plot by Jack or medal players.  The removal of blind shots had been ongoing and strongly advocated by celebrated archies (and not for medal play purposes imo, well at least I never read that as a reason for the reduction of blind shots) well before the rebuild of Saunton.  I find it disappointing when golfers have difficulty finding the good in a well balanced design such as Saunton, but I am not surprised because I know many people visit GB&I wanting to see mountainous dunes in action.  

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

Sean,

So the east course fairways were flattened to make airplane runways in WWII? One wouldn't think so since just off the fairways there are significant undulations. Furthermore, the west course which opened before WWII, still has the undulations in the fairways. Please explain why the fairways of the east course for the most part are flat, and the fairways of the west course are not.

[Thomas Dai]

Here's a Bing Sat-map of the two Saunton courses plus the huge area of dunes to the south and the west. Biggest area of duneland in the UK I've been told.

Saunton area - http://binged.it/1uhd3ZP

As to airport runways, I thought the area was used as a tank training area during WWII.

atb

[Tom_Doak]

Why was the issue of seeing the bottom of the flag stick such an issue between Tom and Jack when they built Sebonack?

Sorry to thread-jack, but, I don't remember that this ever was an issue at Sebonack.  Could you remind me how you know this?

Jack DID count the number of uphill shots in the routing at the beginning of the process, but I don't remember him ever talking about seeing the bottom of the flag stick.

[Garland Bayley]

Why was the issue of seeing the bottom of the flag stick such an issue between Tom and Jack when they built Sebonack?

Sorry to thread-jack, but, I don't remember that this ever was an issue at Sebonack.  Could you remind me how you know this?

Jack DID count the number of uphill shots in the routing at the beginning of the process, but I don't remember him ever talking about seeing the bottom of the flag stick.

Perhaps the use of the word "such" was oversell. My memory is that you discussed a hole on here where from much of the fairway the bottom of the pin was not visible, and Jack was uncomfortable with that.

[Garland Bayley]

Why was the issue of seeing the bottom of the flag stick such an issue between Tom and Jack when they built Sebonack?

Sorry to thread-jack, but, I don't remember that this ever was an issue at Sebonack.  Could you remind me how you know this?

Jack DID count the number of uphill shots in the routing at the beginning of the process, but I don't remember him ever talking about seeing the bottom of the flag stick.

Perhaps it was your posts about his concern for visibility that led me to conclude the issue of seeing the bottom of the flag stick was present in your mutual work at Sebonack.

The first time I met with Jack Nicklaus re: Sebonack, he had counted how many uphill shots there were on my routing vs. the last one they had done, and mentioned the fact there were more; but he admitted that maybe the routing was better and we could deal with the visibility issues.  Visibility is a very big deal to Jack.

When we were building the course, I was going to put some fill for the back tee on #14 which is down in a corner of the property, but Jack said not to bother ... it was an uphill tee shot anyway, it might as well be really uphill.

Mark:

You raise an excellent point which I had omitted -- the contour of the fairways.  

I think Sebonack takes the elements which Jack has traditionally used to make a golf course hard -- length, small greens, and lots of bunkering -- and adds the 3-D effects on the fairways and greens which I normally use in lieu of those other things.  Put it all together, and it's a very difficult test.

Jack was not as agreeable about using lack of visibility as an element of difficulty, which I do on occasion.

[Thomas Dai]

This thread title got me thinking about the Himalayas putting course at St Andrews.

Immensely fun and playable for sure but in no way easy. Plenty challenging. No dullness. No hazards. No forced carries. No dress code. Low maintenance. One club, one ball.

Perfection?

atb

[Sean_A]

This thread title got me thinking about the Himalayas putting course at St Andrews.

Immensely fun and playable for sure but in no way easy. Plenty challenging. No dullness. No hazards. No forced carries. No dress code. Low maintenance. One club, one ball.

Perfection?

atb

You forgot green speed of about 6 

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

This thread title got me thinking about the Himalayas putting course at St Andrews.
Immensely fun and playable for sure but in no way easy. Plenty challenging. No dullness. No hazards. No forced carries. No dress code. Low maintenance. One club, one ball.
Perfection?
atb

You forgot green speed of about 6 
Ciao

I certainly did........and that all players start each hole from the same spot!

atb

[William_G]

There is an assumption here that easy can't be fun. Just saying.

It isn't so much that easy golf isn't fun. More like golf that doesn't present any difficult decisions prior to striking shots is boring. At first it seems fun until you realize that there are no risk reward options to sort through.  No reason to think, no reason to be nervous, no reason to rejoice on a good result.  Just swing away.

this could be true for multiple repeat plays from the same tees and same hole locations, but the course is so big, it will never be boring unless hitting a golf ball properly from tight lies, in a beautiful setting, is boring

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