Is anything wrong with Crystal Downs?

[Peter Pallotta]

Funny how different people can experience different things. Unlike most here, I couldn't remember many of the individual holes; and, unlike many here, I didn't for a second find myself thinking that the greens were too fast for the contours.

Yes, I found the greens fast and challenging, and I three-putted many times and once putted off the green into a bunker; but in my view that was always because a) I didn't hit the right part of the greens with my approach and b) I'm not a particularly good putter. 

Isn't the former what our much-vaunted love of strategy and options and width and contours is all about? Is the latter the truth we most frequently forget as we commiserate and comfort ouselves around the gca fire? 

[Matthew Lloyd]

I'm probably in the minority but holes #12-17 are my favorite at Crystal Downs. I've only played the course once, but I loved the back nine, especially once the routing got back into the woods. The comments about #17 are predictably divisive, but also really interesting to read. That was my favorite hole on the course despite the fact that I had to pick my ball up and retire after hooking my tee shot at least 100 yards out of play after going for the green.

[Tim_Weiman]

Several years ago I played Crystal Downs with a gentleman from Sydney, Australia. After playing the 18th hole I noticed this man was in tears walking up the hill to the clubhouse.

Perhaps I should have left him be, but I asked him if everything was alright.

He replied telling that he was crying because he knew this would be his only visit and he would never again see the course.

Don't recall any other course producing that much emotion.

[Terry Lavin]

Several years ago I played Crystal Downs with a gentleman from Sydney, Australia. After playing the 18th hole I noticed this man was in tears walking up the hill to the clubhouse.

Perhaps I should have left him be, but I asked him if everything was alright.

He replied telling that he was crying because he knew this would be his only visit and he would never again see the course.

Don't recall any other course producing that much emotion.

Great story. I could feel myself welling up at Cypress Point after the 16th hole. I was still wobbly through 17, but the 18th hole sobered me up pretty quickly. 

[David Davis]

Several years ago I played Crystal Downs with a gentleman from Sydney, Australia. After playing the 18th hole I noticed this man was in tears walking up the hill to the clubhouse.

Perhaps I should have left him be, but I asked him if everything was alright.

He replied telling that he was crying because he knew this would be his only visit and he would never again see the course.

Don't recall any other course producing that much emotion.

Great story. I could feel myself welling up at Cypress Point after the 16th hole. I was still wobbly through 17, but the 18th hole sobered me up pretty quickly. 

Incidentally I had the same reaction standing on the 17th tee at Cypress after reading the plaque. Special day that was.

Crystal for me is right up there, I felt honored to have the opportunity to see such an amazing artwork let alone play it. It's really quite overwhelming to take in the entire experience, in fact, as Peter rightfully stated it's easy to miss a lot with these type of one off experiences. First of all it simply goes by so fast and there is so much to try and absorb on each hole let alone attempt to actually hit the darn ball where you want at the same time.

[Tom_Doak]

One of Fred Muller's favorite yarns about the Downs will illustrate how little-known it was 20-25 years ago.

He got a call from the old sports writer at the Detroit Free Press, Jack Saylor, who passed away a few years ago now.  Jack was calling to inform Fred that he was writing an article on the best 18 holes in Michigan, and that he had chosen the 17th at Crystal Downs as the second-best 17th hole in the state.

And that's the only mention Crystal Downs was getting on his eclectic. 

Fred responded that the members would be thrilled, even though Jack had chosen the 12th-best hole on the course.

[Carl Rogers]

What USGA event could be held at CD with no alterations?

[Chris DeToro]

Logistics aside...

I think it could host a Women's Open with no alteration

[Jason Way]

What USGA event could be held at CD with no alterations?

US Amateur Four ball would be fun to watch there. 

Just curious, why do you ask?

[Jonathan Mallard]

What USGA event could be held at CD with no alterations?

Everything that could be held at Cypress Point.

[Tom_Doak]

Logistics aside...

I think it could host a Women's Open with no alteration

I think that's right.  Meg Mallon and Beth Daniel both spend time up here in the summer and they love the place.

Really, the only events it couldn't host would be the flat-belly tournaments:  the Open and the Amateur.  [Actually, either of those would be exciting to watch, but it would be considered too short and too severe, even if it produced the right result.]  I think it could host the Senior Open, since Prairie Dunes did so, and the two courses are like family.  Certainly it could host the Mid-Amateur.

However, we have a very short golf season here, and I really doubt the members would vote to give up the golf course for a week or more during the summer season.  They were happy to host the Senior Amateur twenty years ago, because it was in September and the members were mostly gone by then.  [The course killed the senior ams, many of whom have a bad opinion of it to this day.]  So really, the question should be, what event could they host in September?

[Chris DeToro]

Totally agree.  I would love to see how pros and the best ams would play the course for 4 days of stroke play though. 

You mention it being too short and severe for Open or Am--that's an interesting dichotomy.  I'm of the opinion that a short course can still be relevant in major golf if it is severe.  I don't have a problem with it at all actually.  In fact, couldn't the severity lead to a better identification of the best player? 

[Tom_Doak]

Totally agree.  I would love to see how pros and the best ams would play the course for 4 days of stroke play though. 

You mention it being too short and severe for Open or Am--that's an interesting dichotomy.  I'm of the opinion that a short course can still be relevant in major golf if it is severe.  I don't have a problem with it at all actually.  In fact, couldn't the severity lead to a better identification of the best player? 

Chris:

I think it would be fascinating but we'll never know because the powers that be won't let it happen.  They are too busy trying to produce a certain type of champion by slicing and dicing whatever course they choose as a venue, to simply turn them loose on an unconventional course and see how it plays out.

However, I am certain that if this did happen, the reputation of the course would decline.  Somebody would four-putt with the tournament on the line, and the course would be labeled "gimmicky" and "unfair".  Plus, the whole field would be backed up on #17 if it got windy, with everyone going for the green and a lot of guys making big numbers

[Jeff Bergeron]

Logistics aside...

I think it could host a Women's Open with no alteration

I think that's right.  Meg Mallon and Beth Daniel both spend time up here in the summer and they love the place.

Really, the only events it couldn't host would be the flat-belly tournaments:  the Open and the Amateur.  [Actually, either of those would be exciting to watch, but it would be considered too short and too severe, even if it produced the right result.]  I think it could host the Senior Open, since Prairie Dunes did so, and the two courses are like family.  Certainly it could host the Mid-Amateur.

However, we have a very short golf season here, and I really doubt the members would vote to give up the golf course for a week or more during the summer season.  They were happy to host the Senior Amateur twenty years ago, because it was in September and the members were mostly gone by then.  [The course killed the senior ams, many of whom have a bad opinion of it to this day.]  So really, the question should be, what event could they host in September


Didn't they have a senior am roughly 10 years ago?

[BCowan]

Tom,

   It's hypothetical world and CD hosted a Men's US Open and you have complete control of the set up, give me an idea of what you would stimp the greens at? 

[Jim Nugent]

So really, the question should be, what event could they host in September?

The Ryder Cup. 

[Tom_Doak]

So really, the question should be, what event could they host in September?

The Ryder Cup. 

There you go!  Although I don't know what we would do with the galleries for the matches that got to #17.  Maybe the guy building the new house on the hill to the right would put up the money for the event.

Ben, as to your question, it's the very definition of hypothetical.  The pros could handle the greens at 11 on the Stimpmeter, though most of them would wind up putting off a couple of greens during the week at that speed.

Jeff B:  I think the Senior Amateur was in 1991.  Time flies!

[John Kirk]

I have a question.

Part of the definition of a "10" golf course is "Nearly perfect; if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something worth seeing."

If I had to pick a hole that I felt didn't fit in, it would be the 18th hole.  If I skipped #18, would I be missing anything significant, except to see how Mr. Mackenzie resolves/completes the course.  It's quite awkward how the player walks 100-150 yards away from the 17th green, and then plays a very good dogleg par 4, that is rather conventional when compared to the brilliant and unusual hole designs that come before it.  The hole is played to the opposite side of the hill where the clubhouse is, and is sort of separate from the rest of the course.  A long walk up the hill to the clubhouse is required after the round.

(I know there is an 18th tee closer to the 17th green, by the way.)

I'm looking to learn something about the 18th at Crystal Downs.  My first thought is how difficult the decision of how to complete the course routing can be.  In many ways, the 18th hole at Crystal Downs is exactly what is desired, a medium length, medium difficulty par 4, an easy walk down to the final green, after playing a difficult and dramatic course.  Any thoughts are appreciated.  Thanks.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

The back tee on #18 to which you refer was added +/- 1960.  The original tee was the one immediately behind #17 green.  I think the hole is clearly better from the back tee ... especially nowadays when long hitters can knock it right up in front of the green, blind over the trees, from the old tee ... but it does highlight the difficult decisions one has to make between choosing the better hole, or the easier walk.  [I guess the present solution leaves that choice to the individual golfer.]

I do think it's a very good finishing hole from the back tee.  It's not impossible to finish with a 3; it's not easy to make 4; and it's also possible to make 6 with a bad tee shot and a foolish second.  But that is pretty much true of every hole on the course, and that's why I like it so much.  It is much easier at Crystal Downs than at most courses to simply take the round and enjoy it one hole at a time.

[John Kirk]

I decided to investigate further, and am now looking at the satellite map of the course.  There are 8 greenside bunkers at the 18th green.  5 of them flank the right side of the green, and 3 on the left, though the right side bunkers cover a much larger area.  There are no fairway bunkers.

The hole is 400 yards from the back tee, and the dogleg angle appears to be about 50 degrees.  If I hit a good drive (assume 50% of the time), I think I can have 130-150 yards left.

It looks like a less talented or weaker player has a better chance of running the ball into the green from the left side of the fairway, since the green is open on the the left side.  It also appears for a good player, short iron approaches to front pins are easiest from the left side of the fairway, but back pin approaches have the greatest margin of error from the right side of the fairway.

The green orientation and bunker placement appear quite clever.  Thanks a lot for your response.

(hole #18 is top center in this map)

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Crystal+Downs+Country+Club/@44.700859,-86.234904,769m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x881e0a3a6d3dc6cb:0xd0a2a7520c4faabc!6m1!1e1



 

[JC Jones]

John,

I agree that the hole is awkward and I'm not overly in favor of the tee shot (thought it is more reasonable from the back tee).  I do, however, think the green and the green complex as a whole is one of the best on the course.  Somewhere I thought I'd read that the original routing was to have the green shelved into the hill closer to the golf shop.  If so, I'm glad they didnt follow through on that because I'd hate to lose the green site that is currently there.  Its really great.

[Jason Way]

Perhaps it's the case that the hole is less interesting tee to green in terms of fairway contours and features, relative to the other 4s and 5s at CD. Maybe that is why it suffers - by comparison.  But the green complex is outstanding, and challenging with any club in hand.  For me, it was a punctuation mark on an amazing golf experience, not a let down in any way.

[JC Jones]

It's not really an issue of fairway contours or features.  It's the fact that it's a 90 degree dog leg that created an awkward tee shot from the original tee box.  This may be one of the few holes I can think of that truly is lessened by modern equipment.

[Mike Schott]

So really, the question should be, what event could they host in September?

The Ryder Cup. 

I understand this is theoretical but September in Northern Michigan can have dicey weather. And can the course and the Frankfort area provide the needed infrastructure? Seriously doubtful.

I was at Oakland Hills in 2004 for the Ryder Cup and while I've never been on the CD property, I can't imagine they have the space to host 40-50K people per day. Oakland Hills has a second course and they used part of it to stage the buses and we parked at the Silverdome lot in Pontiac. Ryder Cup logistics are immense.

[Jonathan Mallard]

In my only round there, I commented around the 13th hole that the second hole was the weakest one I'd seen so far on the course.

My host immediatly pointed out that it was a very good hole. I agreed then, and I agree now. The 2nd at Crystal Downs is a spectacular hole.

I just think that the other 17 are better.