Is anything wrong with Crystal Downs?

[David Davis]

Crystal Downs is awesome! Is there anything wrong with it besides the fact it's located up North where it must spend 5 months a year under heavy snowpack?

I will note that it seems that the very best courses in the world are extremely hard and maybe bordering on unplayable for higher hcp'ers but they certainly do offer the utmost challenge for people who can play the game decently. Maybe one day I'll find myself in this group...maybe.

A couple notes I would like to add here. One of the very few courses I've played where I can easily remember all 18 holes. The most 3 putts I've ever had in a round of golf. Which doesn't really mean anything except to me. Though a lot of times the greens had me laughing at myself and thinking you got me again.

Apparently there are those that are critical of the 17th hole. I'm not in that group. I didn't play it well, in fact, to keep us moving I just picked up after trying foolishly to drive the green only to pull it left (though I will add that I often fade my drive a little and this hole fit my eye perfectly with the driver). I'd love another go at it with a rescue club or a 4 or 5 iron. It's a quirky little hole with a green I'd either want to approach with a short pitch/chip from close by or from a comfortable short iron distance in order to try to hit and hold it. One thing extremely cool about the hole was the foresight used to place massive bunker likely 1000 yds away back in the course that visually served as green side bunker on this hole. Now honestly this is something that was pointed out to me but what a super cool feature.

Perhaps one could argue about the width and usage of too much rough but this could be argued of most of the top parkland courses, i.e. Merion. What is certain is that Crystal would also be awesome if all grass was cut short given the very high influence of strategy and angle of approach to the severely tilted greens.

Those that have played or studied the course, what are your thoughts?


Here is the 17th if you haven't seen it, though not great photos:


You can see the bunkers far off in the distance:



Here's looking back from the green:

[Jason Way]

My short answer to your question David is no.  There is nothing wrong with it. 

On my one play of CD, I got a solid thrashing around the greens on a few holes, but I didn't find that off-putting at all.  Just made me want to play it again.  An argument could be made that some of the fun of the course is lost when the greens are running above 11 (as they were the day I was there), because I don't believe that the contours were made with lightning fast green speeds in mind.

The place is just so magical though, that I really didn't care about my score.  I got completely lost in the strategy, beauty and artistry of it, and to me, that is the most important measure of great GCA.

[David Davis]

Jason,

Thanks, my feeling is exactly the same. Though you are a far better player than I am. Happy to hear I wasn't the only one getting thrashed on the greens though they were not playing at 11 on the stimp when I was there. More like 9 and that was fast enough for me. I'll also note the rough was down since May is still early in the season. However, the only difference that would make to me would be in taking a more lofted wedge to get out of it, like on nearly any links course. As long as you could find the balls. 11 is really fast for those greens indeed. I did hear rumors that most if not all of the members have putted off all the greens on the course at least once. How many courses can say that.

So if there is nothing wrong with it, which I agree? Is it perfect? Near perfect? Would it be possible for it to be perfect? What if we take out the subjective maintenance issue and only judge it for GCA merits?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I've played about ten rounds at CD. I played it thirty years ago when no one knew about it and thought it was the best course I had ever played, up til that time.  Ten years ago I beought by 81 year old father there and  Kingsley Club. He found Kingsley very difficult but Crystal more playable. The greens are certainly challenging, but the course is very forgiving if you keep your head and know what you are capable of.   It still is one of the best courses I've played. There is nothing wrong with it.  A very minor note would be the ninth hole. It isn't a bad hole, it just comes at an odd time. 

[Jeff Johnson]

David,
I played it last fall for the first time ever and I came away thinking the same thing as you did, it's one of the few golf course's I can remember every hole on the course.  A raw feat for me.  I absolutely loved it!

Jeff

[Greg Taylor]

Great course... My only criticism would be 14-16 are not as exciting as the other holes and certainly not as great as 5 thru 7...?!

17 is somewhat out of character but stands up?

The walk from 11 to 12th tee is a minor gripe. Sold golf though.

[Peter Pallotta]

I was and remain very grateful for my chance to play Crystal Downs, the only great golf course I've ever played. I've nothing to compare it to, as I literally have not played another 'ranked' course, and so I tend to think of it as great in absolute rather than relative terms. And yet, I found a few weeks after I played it that, except for the 8th and some of the Par 3 holes, and of course the excellent greens and surrounds, I couldn't really remember much of anything else, i.e. none of those much vaunted Par 4s. (Seeing the photo, I do remember taking a two hybrid off the tee at 17, which seemed an obvious choice for me.) Now, I freely admit that the fault/flaw must be mine and with me, and not with CD -- but for what it is worth, the reason I think it great is not because of the individual holes but because I experienced it as a wonderful 'journey' that managed to be both always challenging and always fun, and visually interesting as well. It has what I've begun to describe as the quality of "artful asymmetry" -- the one quality that it seems to me (from pictures only) all great courses past and present tend to share.
Peter

[Mac Plumart]

Green speeds given the contours of the greens.

Mowing patterns.

Easily correctable.

I've also heard complaints about some of the hole transitions for walkers, but my only play I fode. So I can't directly comment on my experience relative to that complaint.

[Chris DeToro]

If only the course was a little closer to the lake and incorporated more lake views... 

Crystal Downs is phenomenal.  I was fortunate enough to play there a few years ago and two things really stood out--the 6th green with the huge boomerang slope that I never would have properly read if not for the help of my host and the two-club influence of the seemingly flat par 3 11th.  17 might be the best short par 4 anywhere.  Great golf course

[Jud_T]

17 might be the best short par 4 anywhere.

I hadn't planned on bathing twice today given the unseasonably cool temperatures, unfortunately I now have no choice in the matter.

[Colin Macqueen]

Jud T upon bathing he frowns
Twice daily is just out of bounds.
But what forum blather
Gets him all in a lather?
The mere mention of dear Crystal Downs.

Howzat!!!

[BCowan]

Jud T upon bathing he frowns
Twice daily is just out of bounds.
But what forum blather
Gets him all in a lather?
The mere mention of dear Crystal Downs.

Howzat!!!

Nice.

A man comes on the bandwidth
and he's tellin me more and more
about some useless information
suppose to fire my imagination

'cause he can't be a man 'cause he struggles
with a 310 yard par 4

I can't get no, oh no no no
Hey hey hey, that's what I say
I can't get no, 2 showers a day

-thee stones

[Peter Pallotta]

The 17th is an iron/hybrid and a wedge. It is a lovely and visually arresting hole, with a fine green. In match play, a long-hitter might try to drive the green, and it might work out for him, or it might not. It comes at an excellent point on the journey. Why do we need to say more for it, or about it?

Peter

[Jud_T]

Actually, I parred the hole at a critical juncture in our match there.  Some of us think it's nothing more than an awkward connector and a necessary evil of the routing.  Others see it as a quirky, unique hole that grows on you with multiple plays.  But to say that it might be the best short 4 anywhere is one of the most utterly ridiculous things I've ever read on this site, or anywhere else for that matter.  As a single, simple comparison, take the 15th, which is one of the best short 4s around and an infinitely better hole than 17.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Superb golf course,perhaps there could be less rough as it probably used to be, but I actually like the definition as it is.
Some of the green contours are excessive for the respective speeds but that is not to the detriment of the course design, merely agronomy and member desire for green speed.
Tremendous routing and on course visibility of the other holes, I love that about Crystal Downs, how you can stand on tees and line up three or even four greens in a row by looking over the course.
So many really good holes and a great clubhouse with one of the worlds greatest head pros.
Not much not to like

[John Kirk]

The 17th hole at Crystal Downs is a connector hole, connecting golf land to more golf land.  It deserves its reputation as the shortest par 6 in golf.  I remember when Tom Doak told the story about hosting Ian Baker-Finch, who drove the green and made a two-putt albatross.

In my opinion, the back nine at Crystal Downs is a bit underrated, and I like holes 14-16 very much.  The 15th hole (a 330ish yard par 4) has a swale crossing the fairway in just the right place.  A simple looking, strategically compelling hole.

Crystal Downs yields a significant percentage of delicate downhill putts and chips where you are just trying to find the fall line, and defensively trickle the ball down near the hole.  Pasatiempo has the same kinds of shots; they are similar in this regard.

 

[David Davis]

I've played about ten rounds at CD. I played it thirty years ago when no one knew about it and thought it was the best course I had ever played, up til that time.  Ten years ago I beought by 81 year old father there and  Kingsley Club. He found Kingsley very difficult but Crystal more playable. The greens are certainly challenging, but the course is very forgiving if you keep your head and know what you are capable of.   It still is one of the best courses I've played. There is nothing wrong with it.  A very minor note would be the ninth hole. It isn't a bad hole, it just comes at an odd time. 

Tommy that's very interesting and very surprising to me. I had the opportunity to play Kingsley the next day. Also had a good guide there but played one of my best rounds of the year first time seeing the course. The real crutch only being the long par 4 15th where I walked off with a triple. I would of thought Kingsley to be friendlier to higher hcp'ers honestly. In fact, much friendlier given the openness, width and more gentle greens.

[David Davis]

Well, I wouldn't consider 17 to be one of the best short par 4's in all of golf, that pushes it for me although I do think it's a lot better than a pure connector hole. the green site alone is far better than that. Start with a great view, move to a risk reward tee shot where you could realistically hit nearly any club in the bag but have to hit a pretty good shot or face considerable penalty. It's not the best at Crystal Downs, definitely not but even if we go as far to say it's the worst, at most courses it would be the signature hole in my opinion.

Throw it into the mix at Arcadia Bluffs with the lake in the background for example and it's easily the best hole on the course. Just saying. Not trying to compare the two.

The greens are really amazing. I think I was really lucky with the green speeds. I like fast greens yes but not sure how I would of felt with them rolling at 11. Though I doubt honestly it would of made a big difference in my putting display.

It's a course you really need to learn and super challenging on your first play even with an excellent guide.

As to the walk that a few of you mentioned. I didn't find it bad at all. Ok that one stretch between 11 and 12 almost brought up a sweat but the cart girl at the top of the hill made it all worth while. ;-)

The best part about it is that there is just as much walking downhill as up for those that find the uphill part challenging. I'd way prefer to spend the day walking uphill, down gets a little hard on the knees, up is not an issue.

I also fall into the group that certainly doesn't think the run of holes from 14-16 is weak in anyway. Though I would say the par 5 16th would be in the bottom of the ranking if we were to rank all the holes in terms of GCA merit.

[Chris DeToro]

17 as merely a connector hole??  But maybe I should've been more specific--17 is one of the best driveable par 4s.  There are other better short par 4s that aren't driveable, but 17 tempts even the shorter hitters to take a crack at it.  As David mentions, you can hit pretty much any club off of the tee--and regardless of what club you hit off the tee, you still have a chance of getting to the green and with a club shorter than a long iron--not a lot of holes you can say that about anywhere.  And how much fun are short, uphill pitch shots where you can't see the ball land? 

[Josh Tarble]

Crystal Downs is simply one of the finest courses in the world and one of my favorite golfing experiences.  I would love to spend my life figuring out that place. 

However, if I am nitpicking (and this is GCA, so duh) I would say it has too many sharp left to right dogleg holes.  That is a very minor complaint but something I noticed on my solitary play.  Other than that I think it's a perfect course, every aspect of it is so well thought out and designed and I even think the maintenance is perfect as well.  Without the rough-cut balls would run straight into the native and regardless of "playing angles" and "design intent" that is not fun.

If Crystal Downs is the 25th best in the world...the 24 above it have to be astounding. 

[John Kirk]

I was just trying to be funny about the 17th hole, without mentioning specifics.  But I'm glad that others here like it.  I suppose it's my least favorite hole on the course, but great golf courses transcend that sort of analysis.  It's an integral part of the journey around the park.
   

[Paul OConnor]

The greens are just too fast.  I think the silly speeds really detract from the greatness of the course.  The green speeds could be moderated significantly and the course would still be fabulous, maybe even better.  

[Mac Plumart]

The greens are just too fast.  I think the silly speeds really detract from the greatness of the course.  The green speeds could be moderated significantly and the course would still be fabulous, maybe even better.  

I totally agree!  It would be a better golf course with more appropriate green speeds relative to their contours.

[Bill_McBride]

The 17th hole at Crystal Downs is a connector hole, connecting golf land to more golf land.  It deserves its reputation as the shortest par 6 in golf.  I remember when Tom Doak told the story about hosting Ian Baker-Finch, who drove the green and made a two-putt albatross.

In my opinion, the back nine at Crystal Downs is a bit underrated, and I like holes 14-16 very much.  The 15th hole (a 330ish yard par 4) has a swale crossing the fairway in just the right place.  A simple looking, strategically compelling hole.

Crystal Downs yields a significant percentage of delicate downhill putts and chips where you are just trying to find the fall line, and defensively trickle the ball down near the hole.  Pasatiempo has the same kinds of shots; they are similar in this regard.

 

Mackenzie was not afraid to build very steep greens because he knew they'd be playable at speeds of 7-8 on today's stimpmeter.   At 11-12 those greens border on insane.  Or at least unplayable. 

[Greg Tallman]

Should there be some tree removal?

The hole pictured certainly seems to be a bit choked.