News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2015, 11:16:09 AM »
There was the incident recently at Niddrie Castle GC near here where someone got hit and lost an eye. Both the person hitting the shot and the golf club were found liable and had to pay substantial damages. The golf club were found liable for not having enough signage advising of the danger of nearby holes. It's quite a tight course and I'm fairly sure that some of the holes have blind shots (although not on the new section of the course). Whether blindness contributed to the accident I don't know.

The fact is the club had a duty of care. It's reasonable to assume that if they have taken professional advice and someone suffers as a consequence then the professional will be in the firing line also.

GJBailey

Who are you shouting at ?

Niall  
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 12:32:26 PM by Niall Carlton »

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2015, 11:16:39 AM »
My comments on the mention of Wakonda Club in Des Moines brings to mind that there are different kinds of "blind tee shots."  When I think of a real blind tee shot, I think of RCD where there are hills right in front of the tee that block all view of the fairway and the landing area.  Hole #8 at Pebble Beach would be an example.  I don't mind a few of those on a course; in fact I like them.  But too many would be repetitive.
Another kind of blind tee shot--such as those few at Wakonda--are where you can't see the entire fairway, including especially the landing area, from the tee.  I don't think these are at all bad--no matter the number.  
Confusion between these two seems to be throughout this thread.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2015, 11:49:58 AM »
Thank you Niall...
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 12:44:26 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2015, 12:25:36 PM »
Got a call from a senior tour pro today, on his way to Wakonda in Iowa.  He said among other things, he didn't mind the blind shots so much, but the second and third holes there combine blind with a rolling fw that kicks your shot off the fw.  In short, there ought to be some way to play the hole.  And, ideally, some way to mark the ideal line, naturally preferred.

Jeff, I grew up on Wakonda and the second hole is not blind--it is an uphill par 3 where you see the flagstick if not the hole.  The third really isn't blind either, although the drive goes down into a valley and you can't see where it ends up.  But you see the whole fairway in front of you until the valley.

It may be the distant memories of my youth, but Wakonda is a great old course which held the US Am in the early 60's, but never gets enough recognition.

I wasn't sure about his numbers, since I haven't been there in a decade, but maybe they renumber the hole sequence for the senior tour?

Mike,

Most golfers prefer 0, some will accept 1, but even then would call it a bad hole.  I figure if  half this board likes them, or 750 golfers, the total of the other 25 Million golfers in the US might not even double that!

My take is that the GA guys had all written against it (especially on approaches) but were sometimes faced with it.  Doak and CC have written against them and don't generally do them. I think I read Pete Dye went back and redid his famous short blind par 4 to make it visible.  In short, the best minds in golf are generally against them. It has been an outdated idea for 90 years now.  And things like higher legal standards, more public courses, etc. sure don't do anything but argue against bringing them back.

The only reason to bring it back is nostalgia, or for variety, but a steady diet of it would tee off almost all golfers.

There are other reasons for blind or partially blind shots besides nostalgia.
Difficult terrain, a connector in a routing, earth moving expense, strategic interest where an opening is found via placement (Pete Dye's 5th at Long Cove has this-not sure if that's the hole you're referring to, but it was not altered)

Britney Spears was a very popular singer also, as is Justin Bieber.
Doesn't make 'em good, nor should we base our judgement of their music on the majority's poor taste.
Golf is suffering from a nasty spat of fair, overmaintenance, and predictability.
Let's not go the route of bubble gum pop music.
We did that in the Tiger Woods "grow the game" era-and ended up with a noncommitted bunch that wasn't interested once it wasn't cool.

Newer and novice golfers learn from experts.
Every time they turn on the TV they hear "It's great course because it's all out in front of you"
As golfers become more educated, experienced and architecturally refined, I'd say they hear less of less of that jibberish.
Hopefully the number of architecturally brain dead golfers is slowly shrinking, but we all gotta do our part ;) ;D.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2015, 12:31:57 PM »
Ally

Did you design that hole at Carne ?

Niall

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2015, 12:43:54 PM »
Ally

Did you design that hole at Carne ?

Niall

Yes. From the initial routing planned before my time, we straightened the hole (it was a 70 degree dogleg previously, with tees coming in from a completely different second hole) and had to shave part of the dune off to try and give some indication of line and a small sight of the green at the bottom of the hill.

I don't believe there's an architect out there that hasn't designed blindness in to a course to some degree, whether intentional or not. I just played Enniscrone in awful conditions yesterday. Five of the six Steel / Ebert holes have completely blind shots or partial blind shots.

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2015, 02:41:23 PM »
I'll follow up on GJ's comment from earlier in the thread.  I don't know the psychology of it, but it seems that blind shots either totally discombobulate golfers - mostly high handicappers - or serve to relax them.  While there may be a target such as a post or stone for this second group to aim at, there's not a wide (or narrow) swath of fairway that's visible, so they have little choice but to let their natural ability take over and hope for the best.

BTW, other than Tobacco Road, can anyone think of a course that begins with a blind (or mostly) blind shot?


Andy, El Desafío (Greg Norman) starts with a blind shot playing over a gorge. Hole #1 is a 450 yard easy par 4 that plays downhill after you go past the ridge. It is extremely wide, approximately 90 yards  at the landing areal, so hard to qualify it as unfair. The only required decision really is to avoid driver if you are thinking of hitting it past 320/340 yards, which is possible with the predominant wind. My guess is pros would play an easy 3-wood or a long iron.

I believe the opening blind shot is a great decision in this case and it plays with the anticipation of going out and seeing the course and the views. The first shot does not give you much in terms of the views, indeed all of the first hole really hides the views, until the short walk from the #1 green to the #2 tees that open up spectacular long views.



From over the ridge.



This second shot from where the fairway narrows at approximately 340 yards from the back tee as can be seen in this picture.



The false front of the fairway is very steep and is just there to show players where to hit to, but will not play even for quite short shots. There is a set of short tees on the other side of the gorge for the shortest hitters.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 03:45:24 PM by MClutterbuck »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2015, 03:40:23 PM »
...
GJBailey

Who are you shouting at ?

Niall  

 ???
Is not the internet convention for shouting to use all caps?
I didn't know I was shouting at anyone.
 ???
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2015, 03:44:34 PM »
I like blind holes in moderation, plenty at Barnbougle for instance that play marvelously.
My two favourites are #5 at New South Wales and the 10th at Cape Wickham, both of which are blind and crest to reveal marvelous Ocean views

Benjamin Litman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2015, 03:57:12 PM »
Blind shots are, to me, the most compelling in golf. Some might prefer long (especially water) carries on par-3s (think the 16th at Cypress or the 9th at Yale), but the suspense of those shots--seeing the ball in the air, trying to determine where it will land--is prolonged with blindness. You get to see the ball in the air, but you have no idea where it landed or, more to the point, ended up--until you walk over the hazard (typically a ridge or other landform) that's responsible for the blindness. Because the anticipation is always compelling, the moment of discovery--be it fortuitous or not--is always experienced acutely.

As for specific examples, I share Michael's love for the 5th at New South Wales.





But my favorite blind tee shot of all time remains the 17th at Yale. Watching one's tee shot soar over the pond and then the hill obscuring the fairway is one of the great thrills of playing golf at Yale. And to think that the ridge used to be several feet higher!





"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2015, 04:22:41 PM »
I wonder in the UK  what % of courses playing a routing from pre 1940 do not have at least one blind tee shot? I am struggling to think of one at the moment.

Jon
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 03:39:34 AM by Jon Wiggett »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2015, 04:29:18 PM »
Benjamin,

I think Justin Bieber's new song is "I hate blind shots cause modern golf is so cooooool.......and I hit it so faaaaar and it's not faaiaiaiair"
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2015, 05:32:34 PM »
From television as a kid I always loved watching the blind tee shot over the steep rise on 18 at Riviera.

Playing it as an adult it looked twice as high in person!
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Daniel Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2015, 05:48:23 PM »
There's a second component to the thrill of a blind shot that can't be overlooked. Like the anticipation of discovery that Benjamin mentioned, there's also an opposite force at play... The enhanced sense of dread one feels when a shot has been hit poorly over a blind drive or approach. Those few minutes between the shot and locating the ball are among the most dreadful in the game...

To add: I <3 Blind Shots and Bieber. 
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 05:52:47 PM by Daniel Jones »

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2015, 12:02:46 PM »
I'm a fan of blind tee shots. In an earlier post, Jon Cavalier noted that it's the anticipation of seeing where your shot finished, and I couldn't agree more. For me, it's both the anticipation and the fear of finding out how the tee shot ended up that's the best thing about a blind tee shot.

The only thing I don't like is wondering whether the group behind me will send a ball screaming at my head.  8)

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2015, 12:42:57 PM »
I'm a fan of blind tee shots. In an earlier post, Jon Cavalier noted that it's the anticipation of seeing where your shot finished, and I couldn't agree more. For me, it's both the anticipation and the fear of finding out how the tee shot ended up that's the best thing about a blind tee shot.

The only thing I don't like is wondering whether the group behind me will send a ball screaming at my head.  8)

And you said you wouldn't like The Goat ;D
6 blind approaches-2-3 other blind tee shots where if you know the course, you know exactly how it ended up
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2015, 12:44:42 PM »
I'm a fan of blind tee shots. In an earlier post, Jon Cavalier noted that it's the anticipation of seeing where your shot finished, and I couldn't agree more. For me, it's both the anticipation and the fear of finding out how the tee shot ended up that's the best thing about a blind tee shot.

The only thing I don't like is wondering whether the group behind me will send a ball screaming at my head.  8)

And you said you wouldn't like The Goat ;D
6 blind approaches-2-3 other blind tee shots where if you know the course, you know exactly how it ended up

I stand corrected!

Aaron Marks

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2015, 01:37:35 PM »
I'm also a fan of blind tee shots.  Funny story about those...

In 2001 David Esler was contracted to renovate Ravisloe CC.  A lot of work was done on the bunkers, including adding a bunker ~65 yards in front of the 17th tee box!  Why?  The 17th requires a blind tee shot over a hill, with an almost uniform backdrop of trees.  In short - there wasn't a natural, specific aiming point.  In the satellite image you can see this small bunker.  

(the tee box in question is in the upper right corner of image)
(sorry for the long image, you'll have to scroll right to see it.  I'm learnin'!)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 01:47:34 PM by Aaron Marks »

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2015, 08:50:25 PM »
Blind tee shots are simply fun.  Plus there is the added element of the unknown which can mess with a  golfer's mind on the tee no matter how many times he's played the hole (and it's seemingly no longer blind). 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Blind tee shots
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2015, 11:05:50 PM »
Don't blind shots produce/introduce a non-architectural element in the golfer's mind ?

Uncertainty, ergo tension and the pressure to perform ?

Certain architectural features produce fear others comfort, others uncertainty.

Even if you've played a hole a thousand times, you don't know if your ball is in the fairway or rough if you hit it off line.
And, if the wind is in your face, chances are, you're going to end up in a location other than where you aimed.

Isn't blindness an integral part of the golf courses defense ?

And, doesn't the typical golfer find that very, very unsettling ?

Perhaps that's why blindness is so villified.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back