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John Kirk

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What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« on: May 26, 2015, 11:37:59 AM »
I was a little frustrated by the recent “Best Match Play Course at Bandon” thread, as it failed to identify the criteria for a good match play course.  A few concepts, such as width and difficulty, were suggested.  I don’t remember a GCA thread dedicated to discussing what makes good match play holes.  I will start with some thoughts and see if a discussion breaks out.

I was also motivated to consider this topic by A.B. Mack’s recent paper on minimizing score by making smart decisions.

1.   First, let’s review section 17 of the USGA Handicap Manual, “Allocation of Handicap Strokes”.  Typically, matches are played by amateur golfers with established handicaps, and players “spin off” the low handicap player, with the number of handicap strokes allocated equal to the differential between the low handicap player and the other players (1 opponent for singles match play, 3 other players for fourball match play).

Section 17-1 a. states:
 
a. Basis of Allocation

Allocate strokes based on play of the course from the tee markers used most often by the majority of club members.

Allocate the first stroke to the hole on the first nine on which the higher-handicapped player most needs a stroke as an equalizer and the second stroke to the hole on the second nine on which the higher-handicapped player most needs a stroke as an equalizer. Alternate in this manner for the full 18 holes.

Generally the longer the hole, the greater the need for the higher-handicapped player to receive a stroke.


Based on this paragraph, we can make the assumption that the effective “slope” of longer holes is higher.  In other words, the average score on a long golf hole increases faster then the average score of a short hole as the handicap increases.  Although I don’t have any data here, I’m inclined to believe that low handicap holes, where

2.   Let’s initially assume that a match play hole is good if there is a winner a high percentage of the time.  The benefits of having a volatile match play course are obvious.  If the final three holes of a course each yield a “win percentage” of 50%, then the player who is 2 down with 3 holes to play has about a 1 in 64 chance of winning the match on the 18th hole (50/2 = 25% chance for each hole, (1/4)^3 = 1/64).

3.   A golf hole can yield inconsistent scores two ways.  First, the hole yields an average score of about N.5, such as 3.5, 4.5, 5.5 or 6.5, for one or more players in the match.  An average score of N.5 tends to minimize the frequency of how often a player makes a specific score (always makes a “5”, etc.).  The second way to generate inconsistentcy is a hole with a high standard deviation of scores, a “birdie-double bogey” hole that yields a wide distribution of results.

A few years ago, I compiled a hole-by-hole scoring analysis for the courses I was playing regularly.  As a result, I have a good idea of my scoring average for various types of golf holes.  I was a slightly better player then; my handicap was generally in the 0-4 range, and my average total score ranged from 75.9 (Pumpkin Ridge – Ghost Creek) to 79.2 (Kinloch, where I was a member for many years).

I average about 5.0 on so-called par 4.5 holes, whether they are 500 yard par 5s with little trouble, or 450 yard 4s with water hazards in play.

I average about 3.0 – 3.1 on easy par 3 holes, 125 yards with water or severe slopes, or 150-160 yards with gentle slopes.

Examples of 3.5 holes for me are:  #2 and #11 at Kingsley, #14 at Kinloch and #7 at Stone Eagle.  The first two are 8-iron shots to greens with severe difficulties but no water.  Kinloch #14 is an 8-iron with a lake left and long of the green, and #7 at Stone Eagle is a 210 yard drop shot (4-5 iron) with more room for misses.

Typical 4.5 holes are #1, 2, 17 and 18 at Ballyneal.  #6 and #8 at Kingsley are also in this range. These are wide and long holes, or medium length and tricky holes with an emphasis on an accurate drive.  In a parkland setting a 425 yard hole with trees and a medium difficult green complex is a 4.5 hole.

I average about 5.5 on difficult par 5s.

It’s clear that holes with water hazards and out of bounds penalties yield a broader distribution of scores, and while these holes probably often yield a match play “win”, I generally dislike them.

4.   Let’s compare me to a top amateur or low-level professional player.  My average score is about 78, and the top amateur averages about 69 from the tees I play.  So 9 strokes better, or 0.5 strokes per hole.  But they kill me on the long par 4s and par 5s, maybe averaging 4.3 on holes I average 5.0, but only 0.3 strokes better on the short par 3s (say 2.8 vs. 3.1).  Hence the need for a stroke on the longer holes.

This can be similarly extrapolated to players who score 9 strokes higher than me.

5.   I’ve had the pleasure of playing Prairie Dunes GC about 8-10 times, and it seems the prototypical round was 10 bogeys and 8 pars for a score of 80.  It is very difficult.  Yes, a wild driver of the ball will hit shots into the “gunch” for two stroke penalties, but for the most part, I felt I was forever getting a little out of position with two imperfect shots, and then not being able to get up and down for par.  Prairie Dunes seems to me a classic example of a course where a little mistake means missing an 8-foot putt for par.  Whether this yields a high “win” percentage and a volatile match play course seems irrelevant.  This is an invigorating style of course for match play.  The big question is whether a course like Prairie Dunes enables my opponent, say a 13 handicapper, to carefully navigate his ball to make a safe bogey and win the hole.  The high handicapper is always at a disadvantage.

6.   It is very important for a good match play hole to give the player a reasonable chance to make bogey, if out of position after one shot.

7.   So now I’ve come full circle in my argument, and will now reject the golf hole that yields a wide distribution of scores, while maintaining my stance that holes that yield an N.5 score, for at least one player in the match, are desirable.  Water hazards and OB are the typical troubles that spread out the scores, and these are demoralizing and not fun.  Holes where the difference between par and bogey is often a 4-10 foot putt hold intrigue.

8.   One type of hole I did not mention is the long-iron or fairway wood length par 3, with no water or OB, to a large green complex.  They are a favorite of mine.  They yield medium length second shots, and often result in the exciting 4-10 foot par putts that can determine a win.  #3 and #5 at Pasatiempo are sensational, though my average score at the 3rd is probably around 3.8-4.0.

9.   Therefore, we return to what is considered conventional wisdom here. The best match play course shall possess all of the traits of a good medal play course, but should emphasize the use of long and short holes.  You could make the argument that more than 4 par 5s is desirable, and the par 3s should be varied in length, with at least two long ones.  A good match course for the day also depends on whether the players have significantly different handicaps.  I want a wide course with little to no water in play, that emphasizes positioning and a gradual penalty for inaccuracy.  A good tie in match play is just as intriguing as a win.  Ultimately, my enjoyment of a match rests primarily on my personal enjoyment of the shots presented.

I’m sure I’ll think of something else.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 11:52:57 AM by John Kirk »

Mark_Fine

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2015, 12:17:36 PM »
John,
Can you name a great golf course that is not both great as a match play course and as a stoke play course?  I happen to think the greatest courses are great for both! 
Mark



John Kirk

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2015, 12:24:07 PM »
Hi Mark,

Off the top of my head, the only example of a course better suited for match play is Bandon Trails, because of the 14th hole.

The 14th hole yields such a wide distribution of scores, that one's medal score is too heavily weighted to their performance on the one hole.

John Kirk

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2015, 12:43:32 PM »
In general, a course that emphasizes the importance of playing one or two holes well would be better suited as a match play course.  We're talking shades of gray here.  Some courses may make slightly better medal play courses, because the holes tend to not differentiate the efforts of two equally talented players on a hole-by-hole basis.

But these are theoretical musings. 

Tim Passalacqua

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2015, 12:51:48 PM »
Quite a few half par holes, so here can be some a gamble and birdies.  Sweetens Cove is a great match play course. Par fives you can hit in two with a long club.  A couple par fours that you could drive.  But you have to be in position on all of these holes.  If you get out of position on the 290 fifth, you can make a quick double being pin high on the wrong side.  Also, the stout sixth hole with water on the drive and approach where a par can easily win.  You can't chicken out away from the water on your tee shot, if you want a reasonable approach shot.

Mark_Fine

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2015, 02:39:29 PM »
John,
If one hole determines whether a course is better for match play than for medal play I would argue that that one hole is not all that well designed.  The 5th for example at Pine Valley and the 16th at Cypress Point yield a whole range of scores but that doesn't mean Pine Valley and Cypress are better for match play than medal play does it? I don't think think so.  I can't name one "great" golf course that is not good for both.  I would go on to argue that the only courses that are "better for match play" are the ones that have questionable or controversial design issues.  Remember, medal play just means you are counting all your strokes on every hole.  If one or two of the holes are so goofy or difficult that even a modest player can't evenutally register a score, then those holes are probably suspect in their design.  Just my opinion. 
Mark

Josh Tarble

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2015, 03:02:15 PM »
I like this statement:

"That one's medal score is too heavily weighted to their performance on the one hole"

I, like everyone else, feel that all great courses are equally suited to medal or match play.  But many people may enjoy some courses better while playing strictly match play.  For example...TPC Sawgrass, Muirfield Village, The Ocean Course, etc. all have holes that could disproportionately effect a players score.  Perhaps these are better suited to match play...

Brent Hutto

Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2015, 03:09:45 PM »
So in this "Match Play Course" vs. "Stroke Play Course" reckoning, it sounds like if one plays Stableford that is the functional equivalent of "Match Play" right?

I mean are we really just talking about "Match Play Course" as a fancy name for a course where a hacker might take a 15 or an 11 or something on a couple of holes?

Sven Nilsen

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2015, 03:19:47 PM »
Hi Mark,

Off the top of my head, the only example of a course better suited for match play is Bandon Trails, because of the 14th hole.

The 14th hole yields such a wide distribution of scores, that one's medal score is too heavily weighted to their performance on the one hole.

John:

Bobby Jones might have said the same thing about the Old Course and the 11th.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

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Andrew Buck

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2015, 03:26:07 PM »
So in this "Match Play Course" vs. "Stroke Play Course" reckoning, it sounds like if one plays Stableford that is the functional equivalent of "Match Play" right?

I mean are we really just talking about "Match Play Course" as a fancy name for a course where a hacker might take a 15 or an 11 or something on a couple of holes?

It would be a wonderful thing if Golf could adopt stableford as the default scoring system.

Bill Seitz

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2015, 03:34:40 PM »
I mean are we really just talking about "Match Play Course" as a fancy name for a course where a hacker might take a 15 or an 11 or something on a couple of holes?

A real hacker might take a 15 or an 11 or something on just about any course.  I think what we're talking about is a course with a couple holes where even a good player may take a 15 or an 11 or something. 

Brent Hutto

Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2015, 03:36:39 PM »
Well for me "Golf" means the game I play two or three times a week. And I certainly don't consider Stroke Play to have any role in "Golf" as it pertains to my game.

When I travel to the UK each year quite often I play courses that are a fair bit more difficult than my usuals back home. I either play Match Play games if I have an opponent or keep a Stableford score if I'm playing solo.

Stroke Play, preferably 54 holes or more of Stroke Play, is the ideal way to identify the best golfers out of a field of highly skilled players. As far as I'm concerned it has no proper role at all for double-digit handicappers other than as a form of self abuse.

Tom_Doak

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2015, 05:16:18 PM »
John,
If one hole determines whether a course is better for match play than for medal play I would argue that that one hole is not all that well designed.  The 5th for example at Pine Valley and the 16th at Cypress Point yield a whole range of scores but that doesn't mean Pine Valley and Cypress are better for match play than medal play does it? I don't think think so.  I can't name one "great" golf course that is not good for both. 

I was going to name Pine Valley in answer to your first question to John.  To my eye, Pine Valley is only a great medal play course for players with handicaps of 3 or less ... and even those guys will often have their medal cards wrecked by one or two "others" in the round.  For someone like me [index 11 and climbing!], trying to break 90 at PV is not much fun.  But I could still have a blast there in a match, or, just hitting a ball around and admiring the architecture.


Buck Wolter

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2015, 06:15:20 PM »
John,
If one hole determines whether a course is better for match play than for medal play I would argue that that one hole is not all that well designed.  The 5th for example at Pine Valley and the 16th at Cypress Point yield a whole range of scores but that doesn't mean Pine Valley and Cypress are better for match play than medal play does it? I don't think think so.  I can't name one "great" golf course that is not good for both. 

I was going to name Pine Valley in answer to your first question to John.  To my eye, Pine Valley is only a great medal play course for players with handicaps of 3 or less ... and even those guys will often have their medal cards wrecked by one or two "others" in the round.  For someone like me [index 11 and climbing!], trying to break 90 at PV is not much fun.  But I could still have a blast there in a match, or, just hitting a ball around and admiring the architecture.



Isn't the story that the Shell's WW of Golf event at Pine Valley one of the contestants (I think it was Littler) basically couldn't finish the fifth hole and they 'replayed' it rather than having the match end there?
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

jeffwarne

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2015, 06:22:12 PM »
I'd say it's generally a polite way to say a course isn't very playable :)

I'd prefer it to mean a course had a lot of 1/2 par holes ,options, or strategies, which if successfully employed might force the opponent's hand-but usually people mean it has a few, several, or many holes one could make a big number on ::) ::)
Doesn't take a genius or a great piece of property to litter the landscape with that
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Sean_A

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2015, 06:39:48 PM »
Delete
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 01:45:15 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Hartlepool

John Kirk

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2015, 06:46:50 PM »
I just got back to my computer.  Thanks for the responses.

By the way, I adore Bandon Trails, and would happily play it every time I played golf.  It will be interesting to see if anyone blows up on #14 during the upcoming 2020 U.S. Amateur, costing them a spot in match play.

So that's one issue, the suitability of a course for medal play vs. match play.

I'm also keen to discuss what makes good match play holes.  I'm not sure we've had a serious discussion about it here.  It's complicated, because players of various abilities may have different requirements for enjoyable matches.  Are there any unique requirements for match play?  

For whatever reason, Tim Passalacqua's description of the 290 yard hole at Sweetens Cove made me think of Portland GCA veteran Peter Pittock.  Peter is a dozen or so years older than me, and plays to a 12-14 handicap most of the time.  Peter hits a 200 yard low fade off the tee, but can reach 380 yard holes by following it up with another 180 yard faded driver, if the green will accept a running shot.  He rarely gets too far off line, stays very relaxed, and is a tough, consistent 13.  Anyway, while reading Tim's description, I imagined Peter driving into the fairway and wedging onto the green, on his way to par and a win.  
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 06:49:16 PM by John Kirk »

John Kirk

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2015, 06:55:33 PM »
Another relevant fact - most matches are played by players of similar abilities, with similar or no handicap differential.  Players of similar abilities generally play together.


And another thought about the 14th hole at Bandon Trails...

You could make the argument that the 14th is so wild, that it could disrupt the momentum of a player leading a match.  If you 2 or 3 up, and made a little mistake, it could get in your head.  In that regard, the 14th is well positioned to have an impact on matches.

Tom_Doak

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2015, 07:01:28 PM »
Another relevant fact - most matches are played by players of similar abilities, with similar or no handicap differential.  Players of similar abilities generally play together.

John:

Some of the most interesting matches I've played are foursomes or four-ball matches with players of varying ability, especially with "bandit" type senior players as you describe Peter, or even better.  For those sorts of matches, having a course with a good variety of fairway bunkering is key, so that the older guys have something to do instead of just hitting it straight all day, which they do easily.  But it's just as important to have greens with open fronts, as you say.

V. Kmetz

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2015, 07:16:29 PM »
Hello again,

JK (and all) - We have had some good threads on this topic (Match - Medal Courses) but I have no problem re-iterating what I've come to believe:

A Medal Play course tends to favor the more highly skilled player, the "better/best" player (that round or tournament)... it seeks to measure golf "skills"... it has heroic carries and penal consequences...it features do or die sand and water hazards...OB often lurks...it favors a big hitter...it is unsympathetic to a player with a marked weakness in some aspect...a medal play course tells the players how it is to be unlocked, the player does not tell it.

A Match Play course tends to favor fortune as a determiner between players of varying disparity in skill. It has strategic options for multi-varieties of golfers...it has equalizers, like blind shots or audacious contours in the greens, (perhaps wind) or holes where variance in distance hitting are negated...it has amusement, quirk and a sense of sportiness...

In the end, the finest courses retain a healthy mix of both aspects and so it is likely unfair to label one such course as either Match or Medal, but the difference is real and extant. Consider the case of playing Phil Mickelson at a TPC course or at TOC ...you're losing both indeed, but where do you hang with Mickelson the longest? And how more variance is between his medal score than yours?

there's some more underneath that, but that'll do til I get back from my pub crawl.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

John Kirk

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2015, 07:28:51 PM »
One more story I remembered while away today...

About 10-15 years ago, the USGA asked my home course to collect and submit a large sample of scorecards for handicap analysis.  A few months later, the USGA responded with their suggested handicap stroke holes.  They designated holes #1 and #8, medium length par 4s originally designated as the 9 and 11 handicap hole, as the 5 and 3 handicap holes.  I'm sure they earned this low rating because the USGA fed the data into a computer to determine the holes where "the higher handicapped player most needs the stroke".  I thought this was a fascinating result, since these two holes were typically considered the two easiest par 4s on the front nine.

Nevertheless, a couple years later, the club solicited a volunteer "greens committee", whose first action was to change the stroke holes back to a more traditional setup, with the longest and (perceived) most difficult par 4s getting the low numbers.  I knew the guys who pushed for the changes, and it always frosted my ass that they couldn't accept that the USGA knew what it was doing.

Clubs may choose how their holes are designated, but sometimes I think they get it wrong.  Another example is the previously mentioned 3rd hole at Pasatiempo, a 210-230 yard, steeply uphill par 3, that is one of the hardest par 3s without water in all of golf.  It is the 2 handicap hole on the course, where I believe a bogey 4 is common for all levels of player.  The 9th hole, an uphill 500 yarder, is the 18 handicap hole, where I think a player who gets 8-10 strokes could really use it there.

Tom,

Speaking of Pasatiempo #3 (again), I was just explaining to a couple of younger friends the value of strategic bunkers for shorter hitters.  As you know, your team restored a wonderful carry bunker on that hole.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2015, 09:54:25 PM »
John Kirk,

Two ferocious, sporting competitors

David Davis

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2015, 02:21:18 AM »
I tend to feel that the best match play courses are the courses that are the most exacting on the back 9 when everything really begins to heat up and nerves come into play.

Every year we lay national club competition which consists of morning foursomes and afternoon singles matches which are played in a matchplay format. Both morning and afternoon.

The best courses are the ones that test your nerves when you are just a few holes in the lead in my opinion. It also gives the trailing player if he has the right mentality always the feeling that they are not out of it and anything can happen. Of course in the case where there is an obvious mismatch in ability or form on the day this also most likely rewards the player in good form.

This is opposite a course that is fun, open and easier I suppose which would allow players that are spraying the ball a bit more to stay in a match.

Therefore I guess in my mind difficulty has something to do with it.

John, if we look at our recent match then we see that you were clearly the stronger player, even so you really had to pick up your game on the back 9 given we were even on the front (thanks to me utilizing the shots you had to give me) to close out the match as I had started playing better. I made you win with solid golf and several birdies. In retrospect it gives me the feeling that your course is a pretty solid match play course. You were rewarded for bold solid play and making your putts. I'd even lean as far as to say that in my mind a course ideally would be even more challenging down the stretch.

That's personal opinion of course. I think my home course is a really good match play course, it's slope is 139 from the medal tees and 143 from the back tees.
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Rich Goodale

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2015, 01:43:22 PM »
I'm with Mark Fine.  A good stroke play course is a good match play course and vice versa.  To paraphrase Gertrude Stein, "A course is a course is a course."

We've had this conversation many times on this forum and I can't remember anybody convincing me that there is such a thing as a "good match play course" that is not a "good medal play course" too.  The only discerning thing I can think of when I think of my golfing experiences, and my most memorable match play rounds, is that the only times I have beaten significantly better players (i.e plus handicap players when I was playing off 5) is over courses that are relatively easy and/or particularly quirkful.  I can't remember ever beating a signficiantly better player at match play over a great golf course, even though I have "beaten" many of them, on the day, in stroke play events.

All these memories, BTW, relate to games playing off scratch.  I do not consider games played off handicap to be relevant.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: What Determines A Good Match Play Course?
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2015, 03:56:02 PM »
The only discerning thing I can think of when I think of my golfing experiences, and my most memorable match play rounds, is that the only times I have beaten significantly better players (i.e plus handicap players when I was playing off 5) is over courses that are relatively easy and/or particularly quirkful.  I can't remember ever beating a signficiantly better player at match play over a great golf course, even though I have "beaten" many of them, on the day, in stroke play events.

As I recall, Painswick was a very interesting match play course.  Full of quirk, certainly, but I think the makeup of the course had something to do with it, as well.

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