For a guy who studied the great links courses of the UK

[Patrick_Mucci]

why did Charles Blair Macdonald introduce such an inordinate number of blind shots on his holes at NGLA ?

[David_Tepper]

Pat M. -

Since the vast majority of us have not had the pleasure of playing NGLA, can you tell us how many blind shots the course has and why you consider that number to be "inordinate?"

DT

[Tom_Doak]

There were more blind shots on the famous UK courses in 1875-1905 than there are today ... blind shots were removed at Deal and Sandwich and Littlestone, but not at NGLA.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat M. -

Since the vast majority of us have not had the pleasure of playing NGLA, can you tell us how many blind shots the course has and why you consider that number to be "inordinate?"

The number of blind shots could be infinite.

But, in terms of the number of holes where one would encounter a blind shot, probably 15 holes.

Would you consider those numbers, "inordinate" ?

DT

[Andrew Buck]

Are NGLA's blind shots generally tee shots or approaches?

[David_Tepper]

"But, in terms of the number of holes where one would encounter a blind shot, probably 15 holes."

Pat M. -

Since I have never been to NGLA, I am simply trying to clarify what you mean by encountering a blind shot.  

To me, if a green is fronted by a ridge so that the green surface cannot be seen from from virtually any angle when hitting an approach shot from the fairway or the rough, that is a blind shot for everyone playing the hole.  However, if there is a sizable mound on one side of the green that might block a view of the green surface from a certain angle, but allow views of the green from other angles, that is a different matter.

Are there really 15 holes at NGLA that present blind shots for everyone playing those holes or do those holes present blind shots only when golfers find themselves in certain positions while playing those holes?

DT        
 
P.S. If you are standing in a bunker that is so deep you cannot see the green surface or the bottom of the flagstick, does that constitute a blind shot in your opinion?

[Mark_Fine]

Roughly nine!

[John Sabino]

Pat -

1) Because blind shots make for a fun and interesting round

2) Because a lot of the courses he studied have blind shots, including some of the best in the world: Prestwick, Sandwich, Troon, County Down and Cruden Bay (don't know if he visited the last two)

John

[Benjamin Litman]

One irony about the proliferation of blind shots at NGLA--which I've only walked (during the 2013 Walker Cup), not played--is that in replicating at NGLA perhaps the most famous UK hole (North Berwick's Redan), Macdonald actually eliminated the blindness.

I agree with John, especially his first point. Blind shots are, to me, the most compelling in golf. Some might prefer long (especially water) carries on par-3s (think the 16th at Cypress or the 9th at Yale), but the suspense of those shots--seeing the ball in the air, trying to determine where it will land--is prolonged with blindness. You get to see the ball in the air, but you have no idea where it landed or, more to the point, ended up--until you walk over the hazard (typically a ridge or other landform) that's responsible for the blindness. Because the anticipation is always compelling, the moment of discovery--be it fortuitous or not--is always experienced acutely.

[Alex Miller]

How many were blind for golfers at the time it was built though?

Here are the ones I can think of (uphill not necessarily meaning blind)

Approach/Drive on 2 (but potentially neither if the player hits to the crest of the hill with a drive)
Approach on 3
Approach on 11
Approach on 16
Approach on 17 (sometimes)


I could see a blind shot come into play on 9 but it's less likely. How many have I missed?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Are NGLA's blind shots generally tee shots or approaches?

BOTH

[Patrick_Mucci]

"But, in terms of the number of holes where one would encounter a blind shot, probably 15 holes."

Pat M. -

Since I have never been to NGLA, I am simply trying to clarify what you mean by encountering a blind shot.  

David,

It seems to me, that for someone who has never been to NGLA that you're trying to tell me what constitutes a blind shot at NGLA.

To me, if a green is fronted by a ridge so that the green surface cannot be seen from from virtually any angle when hitting an approach shot from the fairway or the rough, that is a blind shot for everyone playing the hole.  However, if there is a sizable mound on one side of the green that might block a view of the green surface from a certain angle, but allow views of the green from other angles, that is a different matter.

Are there really 15 holes at NGLA that present blind shots for everyone playing those holes or do those holes present blind shots only when golfers find themselves in certain positions while playing those holes?

There are probably 7 holes that are blind to everyone with another 8 blind to those who find themselves in a different position.

For example, on the 1st hole.
If you drive in the right side of the fairway the green is blind and you have to sight off of the trees behind the green, (if they're still there)
If you drive in the left side of the fairway you have a clear view of the target green.


DT        
 
P.S. If you are standing in a bunker that is so deep you cannot see the green surface or the bottom of the flagstick, does that constitute a blind shot in your opinion?

Only if you were standing outside of that same bunker and couldn't see the green

[Scott Macpherson]

I don't mind the odd blind shot... unless it's on the putting surface

[Patrick_Mucci]

How many were blind for golfers at the time it was built though?

Here are the ones I can think of (uphill not necessarily meaning blind)

Approach/Drive on 2 (but potentially neither if the player hits to the crest of the hill with a drive)
Approach on 3
What can you see on your second shot on # 5
What can you see on the tee and second shot from the bowl on # 7
Approach on 11What about your tee shot on # 11
Approach on 16
Approach on 17 (sometimes)
How about your second on # 18 ?


I could see a blind shot come into play on 9 but it's less likely. How many have I missed?

[Alex Miller]

How many were blind for golfers at the time it was built though?

Here are the ones I can think of (uphill not necessarily meaning blind)

Approach/Drive on 2 (but potentially neither if the player hits to the crest of the hill with a drive)
Approach on 3
What can you see on your second shot on # 5
What can you see on the tee and second shot from the bowl on # 7
Approach on 11What about your tee shot on # 11
Approach on 16
Approach on 17 (sometimes)
How about your second on # 18 ?


I could see a blind shot come into play on 9 but it's less likely. How many have I missed?

Second shot on #5 is unclear to me off the top of my head- I'll take your word it's blind.
My one play on #7 I had a clear view on the second, but it was also my biggest drive of the day. Is the tee shot actually blind? Partial?
Second shot on 18 is also blind, true.

That's 8 or 9 blind shots in around out of 37 full shots according to par. More than your average course, but not too many to turn me off at least.

[David_Tepper]

"It seems to me, that for someone who has never been to NGLA that you're trying to tell me what constitutes a blind shot at NGLA."
 
Pat M. -

I am not trying to tell you anything. I am simply trying to get an understanding of what, in your opinion, constitutes a blind shot. Once I have that understanding, I can look at the links courses in Scotland I play regularly and compare the number of blind shots on those courses.

DT 

[Patrick_Mucci]

How many were blind for golfers at the time it was built though?

Here are the ones I can think of (uphill not necessarily meaning blind)

Approach/Drive on 2 (but potentially neither if the player hits to the crest of the hill with a drive)
Approach on 3
What can you see on your second shot on # 5
What can you see on the tee and second shot from the bowl on # 7
Approach on 11What about your tee shot on # 11
Approach on 16
Approach on 17 (sometimes)
How about your second on # 18 ?


I could see a blind shot come into play on 9 but it's less likely. How many have I missed?

Second shot on #5 is unclear to me off the top of my head- I'll take your word it's blind.
My one play on #7 I had a clear view on the second, but it was also my biggest drive of the day. Is the tee shot actually blind? Partial?
Second shot on 18 is also blind, true.

Alex,

I don't think we can dismiss how the course played before the quantum leap in technology.
Technology, which rendered the "road hole" bunker complex irrelevant to the big hitters.
While I had advocated for moving the 7th tee back across the road, a compromise tee was moved back, in front of the road,
bringing both the "road hole" bunker complex and the bowl in the DZ back into play.

From the bowl, the second shot on # 7 is totally blind.


That's 8 or 9 blind shots in around out of 37 full shots according to par.

Whoa, what about your second shot on # 1 if you're in the right side of the fairway.
Your approach to # 2 if you miss the fairway and end up left or right of the green.
What if you hit short on # 4
Second shot on # 5
Tee and second on # 7
Missed approach on # 8
Tee and second on # 11
approach from left rough on # 14.
Approach from left rough on # 15
Approach on # 16
Approach on # 17 from right side of fairway.
Second on # 18.

That's alot of blind shots, yet strangely, I absolutely love the golf course.

More than your average course, but not too many to turn me off at least.

Hard to get "turned off " by NGLA, but, I know some who are.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"It seems to me, that for someone who has never been to NGLA that you're trying to tell me what constitutes a blind shot at NGLA."
 
Pat M. -

I am not trying to tell you anything. I am simply trying to get an understanding of what, in your opinion, constitutes a blind shot. Once I have that understanding, I can look at the links courses in Scotland I play regularly and compare the number of blind shots on those courses.

David,

I wish I could send you a "golfer's eye" view of the course, like those drone overflies, but, much lower.

By blind, I mean that you can't see the target.

DT 

[BHoover]

Maybe he thought it would be funny?

[Alex Miller]

How many were blind for golfers at the time it was built though?

Here are the ones I can think of (uphill not necessarily meaning blind)

Approach/Drive on 2 (but potentially neither if the player hits to the crest of the hill with a drive)
Approach on 3
What can you see on your second shot on # 5
What can you see on the tee and second shot from the bowl on # 7
Approach on 11What about your tee shot on # 11
Approach on 16
Approach on 17 (sometimes)
How about your second on # 18 ?


I could see a blind shot come into play on 9 but it's less likely. How many have I missed?

Second shot on #5 is unclear to me off the top of my head- I'll take your word it's blind.
My one play on #7 I had a clear view on the second, but it was also my biggest drive of the day. Is the tee shot actually blind? Partial?
Second shot on 18 is also blind, true.

Alex,

I don't think we can dismiss how the course played before the quantum leap in technology.
Technology, which rendered the "road hole" bunker complex irrelevant to the big hitters.
While I had advocated for moving the 7th tee back across the road, a compromise tee was moved back, in front of the road,
bringing both the "road hole" bunker complex and the bowl in the DZ back into play.

From the bowl, the second shot on # 7 is totally blind.


That's 8 or 9 blind shots in around out of 37 full shots according to par.

Whoa, what about your second shot on # 1 if you're in the right side of the fairway.
Your approach to # 2 if you miss the fairway and end up left or right of the green.
What if you hit short on # 4
Second shot on # 5
Tee and second on # 7
Missed approach on # 8
Tee and second on # 11
approach from left rough on # 14.
Approach from left rough on # 15
Approach on # 16
Approach on # 17 from right side of fairway.
Second on # 18.

That's alot of blind shots, yet strangely, I absolutely love the golf course.

More than your average course, but not too many to turn me off at least.

Hard to get "turned off " by NGLA, but, I know some who are.

Counting blind shots from off the fairway? That's borderline moronic... 

[Lyne Morrison]

Macdonald was replicating holes he admired while working within the earthmoving confines of the day.
 
The blind shots at NGLA can be quite powerful; for example, walking over the rise after hitting my approach into 16 coupled with the unveiling of the punchbowl is a golfing moment that I will never forget. Likewise 11 and the reveal of the Plateau - or the approach into 1 on what is a fun opening hole.

Contrast the above to teeing off 3 at New South Wales, which is entirely underwhelming in my view, suggests that a successful scenario requires
more qualities than the blindness alone.

Lyne

[Mark Chaplin]

Deal has 4 blind shots - second to 3rd, drive on 13th and approaches to 15th and 17th. Depending on the tee and player around 6 holes have no opportunity for a fully blind shot. On the 5th off the back tee it would be possible to hit 4 blind shots, including two from the fairway and one from the green side bunker and still make par.

[Sean_A]

If a handcap player (talking about the best players is a totally different proposition) drives into a blind position (in the fairway or not) when there is a position in the fairway to avoid blindness, I wouldn't consider the hole blind.  Also, if I can see a normal size pin and flag, it isn't blind regardless if I can't see the putting surface. 

Tom is right, many courses in the UK have re-designed holes to eliminate blindness whereas I don't think NGLA has done this.  It is likely also true that longer driving has eliminated some blindness. 

Burnham was originally known as a very sporty course with perhaps more blind holes than any other.  Now, there are only a few for guys who don't hit the ball a mile.  The approach to 3; the drive for 10; the second on 13; 15 drive and approach and 18 drive. 

Ciao

[Niall C]

Burnham was originally known as a very sporty course with perhaps more blind holes than any other. 

Ciao

More than the Machrie ?

[MCirba]

Could be a case of do as I say, not as I do?  

From Scotland's Gift, discussing courses overseas;


"After St. Andrews, I think that Prestwick ran for second
place, the chief criticism of Prestwick being the lack of length and
number of blind holes.

"After the above two courses opinion seemed to be pretty evenly
divided between North Berwick,Machrinhanish, 'Westward Ho,
Deal, Hoylake, Littleston, Brancaster and Sandwich. Each had its
champions. I found it very popular to abuse Sandwich-surely
there is no better soil or turf or more attractive undulations on any
green-the fundamentals of a good golf course. True, the holes are
too short, especially the first nine, the putting greens much too
large, with no variety of hazard calling for accurate approaching;
and besides all this, the majority of the holes are blind-a sad fault.

I was told that the Royal St. George's Greens Committee were at
loggerheads; it is to be hoped that they will soon agree and make
Sandwich what it hns all the possibility of being, second to no course."

Later, in describing his pre-conditions for his Ideal course he wrote;

"Before closing I wish to enumerate a few defects which unavoidably
 exist on some really good courses:
.. 'More than three blind holes are a defect and they should be
at the end of a fine long shot only. Excessiive climbing is a detriment.

Me...I love blind holes and always find myself excited to discover one that hasn't been blown up over time.