[Jason Way]

The discussion of new tees on #4 at Kingsley, as well as my visit this week to The Dunes Club got me thinking.  Multiple teeing options (distances and angles) lend an element of variety and fun for me, but I suspect that there is a point at which it can be overdone and become gimmicky.  Further, from an architectural perspective, it seems to me that multiple tees could be used as a crutch by an architect to cover up the flaws of a hole that was designed without enough inherent interest and strategy to begin with.

What say you? Are there examples of courses where the client and/or architect went way too overboard, or where tees were used a crutch for poor design?

[Niall C]

Jason

I'm certaily one that doesn't like too many tee areas on the one golf hole as it can make it look cluttered. I would rather have one larger tee than several smaller ones but thats just me. With regards to different angles, I can understand why its done to add more interest but again I like the idea of constancy in terms of the shot you are trying to play albeit with allowance for change in distance, wind and pin position.

As to it being a crutch for poor design, it seems to me if anything the green would need to be even better designed to deal with different angles. After all, if its poor design played from one angle why would playing from another angle automatically make it better ?

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

Should a zero handicap and a 24 handicap be presented with the same angles of attack into the DZ or green ?

[Brent Hutto]

Anything can be taken to excess but I think a variety of angles for a tee shot is a fine thing. I can not think of a single hole or course I've ever seen where it was done too much or too often.

Of course there us surely a course somewhere that is just silly with them but it would be a minor quibble I suspect.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How many alternate tees are there at NGLA ?

[Jason Way]

Should a zero handicap and a 24 handicap be presented with the same angles of attack into the DZ or green ?

That's an interesting questing Patrick.  I'm not big on "shoulds" in golf, but in terms of angles, I would lean toward yes with regard to approached to greens.  I suspect that you have an answer to your own question though, so come forth.

[Blake Conant]

I don't know if Medinah does this, but #16 on course one was supposed to play from the forward tee once a week.  That's a good hole for any level player whether played from 350-450 yards, so why not get the most out of it? 

Most golfers prefer to play from the same tee box and most superintendents set markers in the same general location every day.  I'd like to see the golfer and the superintendent break out of their shell before asking the architect to scale back what he wants to do. 

[David_Madison]

Jason - Do you consider what Ballyneal does a gimmick or an enhancement of the golfing experience? What they do takes your question to the extreme, and my experience there one weekend playing roughly six rounds leads me to believe that it was a huge and memorable enhancement.

[David Davis]

Hey Jason,

I'd say it doesn't bother me if done well and visually is not a major eyesore.

That being said, it's rare in Europe, Uk and Ireland to find various teeing options. I think this is much more common in the US.

Since Kingsley is fresh in my mind I thought it was cool what what done there. Especially on the 9th hole with various options, lengths and directions in which you could play the hole.

I think I'd rather see them limited and combined as much as possible. ie...men's senior tees/junior tees and women's tees combined and not more than 3 or 4 tees in total being used.

I also like the Ballyneal/Wolf Point type of set up where you kind of pick your own teeing ground though I think this is not realistic on a public or highly trafficked course.

[Jud_T]

David,

Some here have opined that #9 is overdone in this regard.  Another point is that many players in the U.S. won't switch tees if it affects their ability to post a score easily.

[Carl Rogers]

I would ask the question on a more widely known hole ...  17th at Sawgrass.  In that context, the multiple angles are needed just to have some hope of play ability for the 25 handicap tourist.

[David Davis]

David,

Some here have opined that #9 is overdone in this regard.  Another point is that many players in the U.S. won't switch tees if it affects their ability to post a score easily.

Jud, I also recall someone calling it a dog track and suggesting that I skip it all together. 

[Ben Lovett]

How about a hole with tees around 360', plus the green is shaped like the country its in!

[Jason Way]

Jason - Do you consider what Ballyneal does a gimmick or an enhancement of the golfing experience? What they do takes your question to the extreme, and my experience there one weekend playing roughly six rounds leads me to believe that it was a huge and memorable enhancement.

I haven't been to Ballyneal, so I can't comment on that.  Generally, I like the multiple option approach, but I don't think I would like it on every hole.  Perhaps that is what I am trying to tease out for myself.  For every good thing (golf course features included), there is always a point of too-much-of-a-good-thing.

[Brent Hutto]

Jason,

I think how much is "too much" of a good thing can vary a lot. For me, as I mentioned earlier, it would take a lot of optional angles of tees to be "too much". Other good things like firm and fast conditions are even moreso in that direction. It is almost certain possible to get a course so firm and fast that it ceases to be fun but we'd have to be talking way, way, way firm and super, super fast for that to even enter my mind.

Other things, like blind shots, are easier to overdo in my opinion. A blind approach or two over the course of a round can be exciting and the odd blind tee shot is generally OK although not my favorite feature. But if half the Par 4/Par 5 tee shots and every third or fourth approach were blind I'd be waving the "too much" flag.

[Tom_Doak]

I don't know if Medinah does this, but #16 on course one was supposed to play from the forward tee once a week.  That's a good hole for any level player whether played from 350-450 yards, so why not get the most out of it?  

It was?  You guys should probably let me know when you make recommendations like that, so I can tell the members! 

To answer the initial post, I don't normally have a problem with added variety, but I have seen occasionally on modern courses some "alternate" tees that were just silly, and should never have been built. 

Come to think of it, Mr. Keiser put in a couple of them at Pacific Dunes, which are long gone now [along with a couple of mine, and at least one of Jim's]. 

[Joel_Stewart]

Come to think of it, Mr. Keiser put in a couple of them at Pacific Dunes, which are long gone now [along with a couple of mine, and at least one of Jim's]. 

He still has the back back tee on the 18th which stretches it out over 600 yards.  I'm not sure anyone ever plays it but he likes it.

[Daniel Jones]

The 15th hole at my home course is a straight away par-4 with a wide open fairway. During a renovation back in 2009, an alternate tee was added roughly 50 yards to the right of the main one. It took what might be the least compelling hole on the course off the tee and made it rather interesting. It's only used once a week. 6 years later, I still get a little excited when I find the tee set up there.

Does this moderation play a role in how interesting I perceive the alternate location? It certainly must..

[Tom_Doak]

Come to think of it, Mr. Keiser put in a couple of them at Pacific Dunes, which are long gone now [along with a couple of mine, and at least one of Jim's]. 

He still has the back back tee on the 18th which stretches it out over 600 yards.  I'm not sure anyone ever plays it but he likes it.

The back tee on 18th was my idea, not Mike's.  We had Tim Hval hit balls in the dirt there during construction, and downwind, it seemed like it was necessary if you didn't want players going for the green in two.  It's 661 yards from there, so not many people play it.

[Joel_Stewart]

Without thread jacking, is 661 yards the longest hole you have built?  That length seems long for that hole even if it's downwind.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Should a zero handicap and a 24 handicap be presented with the same angles of attack into the DZ or green ?

That's an interesting questing Patrick. Thanks


I'm not big on "shoulds" in golf, but in terms of angles, I would lean toward yes with regard to approached to greens. 

So you do not believe in "incremental" challenge commensurate with the golfer's ability ?

I suspect that you have an answer to your own question though, so come forth.\

I'd rather wait and ponder the responses before offering my views.

Are you familiar with the 14th hole at NGLA ?
Could someone post the Google Earth image of that hole ?

[Tom_Doak]

Without thread jacking, is 661 yards the longest hole you have built?  That length seems long for that hole even if it's downwind.

I think the 1st hole at Apache Stronghold, measured from the practice green back tee, was 4 yards longer.  It's also uphill, so it plays way longer, even at 3,200 feet.

[Jason Way]

So you do not believe in "incremental" challenge commensurate with the golfer's ability ?

I'd rather wait and ponder the responses before offering my views.

Are you familiar with the 14th hole at NGLA ?

I don't think I said that, or even implied it.

Yes.

[Rob Marshall]

Tom, when you design a course do you try and keep the overall differences between sets of tees  within a certain range? As an example I think the
Blue is about 500 yards between the back tees and the next set forward. Does that weigh into your design thinking?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

You stated such in reply # 5


So you do not believe in "incremental" challenge commensurate with the golfer's ability ?

I'd rather wait and ponder the responses before offering my views.

Are you familiar with the 14th hole at NGLA ?

I don't think I said that, or even implied it.

Yes.

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