Most "overrated" Golden Age Architect?

[GeoffreyC]

Ed

Check Ran's course profile to "see the holes" but Yale's #1 is a great and original hole.  Same for #3 with its original double punchbowl green immediately adjacent to the pond.  #8 is an original and one of the best on the course.  Same for #10, 11 and 18. That's a pretty strong set of originals.  Add to these the cape (#2), road (#4), short (#5), leven (#6), biarritz (#9), alps (#12), redan (#13), knoll (#14), eden (#15), double plateau (#17)with principal's nose thrown in for good measure) and you have a hell of a special place. At least it used to be  

[ed_getka]

Geoffrey,
  What makes #1 a good hole in your opinion other than the right side of the green? What makes #11 good in your opinion? I ask since I've only played the course once and obviously couldn't have noticed everything.
  My favorite holes were #10, 12, and especially #17. #9 is really fun to play. It was a great introduction to some brilliant stuff before seeing the full blown genius at NGLA.

[BCrosby]

Ed -

I agree with Geoffrey. Yale has some special non-template holes. For example:

No. 1 - Great putting surface. Tiers within tiers. Mezzanine tiers, if you will. Good driving hole (valley, runoffs both sides).

No. 2 - Nasty green complex. Where to you leave your drive?

No. 3 - Put the green back next to the pond and - allah kazam - a great hole. Driver placement is critical. Green partially blind in a punchbowl with water on one side. Wow.

No. 8 - Put drive in right place or little chance of holding the green. (Your instinct to cut the corner may be the dumb play.)Huge, deep bunker left, mishits right make ups and downs rare. A wonderful short par 4.

No. 10 - Again mezzanine tiers in the green. Incredibly complex surface. Tiers that aren't quite tiers but they are. Green only rivalled by no. 1. Blind approach with a lofted iron to wrong spot means three putts. Which is what I did.

No. 18 - World class par five. Even if you decide to lay-up, the choices are tough. Play back to stay on top of the ridge? Hit it farther and risk downhill lie for your approach shot? And where do you hit your drive?

And those are just the non-template holes at Yale. Of the template holes, my favorite was the Leven. The Road could be the best if they would fix the damn green. Ditto for the Alps. I don't get the Eden in its current state.

A wonderful course. And one where Raynor demonstrated his ability to design terrific non-template holes. I just wish he had felt more free to do more of them.  

Bob



   

[GeoffreyC]

Bob- your round at Yale left a good impression and you clearly have a great eye for features.  

Ed

In addition, the drive on #1 is key in setting up the second shot. There is an upslope in the driving area that will kill a poorly struck shot especially into the more typical wind that is into the player.  I think its one of the best and most difficult first shots in golf.  

If the tee shot is in the fairway but well to the left, its difficult to get to left hand pins without carving a right to left shot.  Even with right hand pins you are hitting towards the bunkers on the right. A drive to the right side of the fairway is usually better but a hazard runs along that side. As Bob said, the green is amazing with a punchbowl left side separated by a narrower upper right tier (Banks said it has road hole features but I don't see that today) where the tier is of variable height. The front left bunker guards the punchbowl but you can use the tier to funnel balls down to pins without challenging it entirely.  Miss the correct tier and putting is really fun. A great opening hole IMHO.

#11 is a teaser hole and probably the easiest hole at Yale.  You expect par but if you miss the tee shot you will make double or worse.  You can layup way short to play really safe but that leaves a blind or semi-blind shot of 140-50 yards (almost no one does this).  Challenging the ledge on the right to get down into the flat on the left requires accuracy as you can lose a ball left or in the gunk/rocks on the right.  Success with the tee ball leaves a sand wedge approach but to a reverse redan type green.  Its subtle but the green falls away to the back and right and it took me a while to realize that my wedges never stuck in place as I thought they should. Back left bunker was a bad place to miss (its easier now after Roger the butcher built a new bunker).

[Mike_Sweeney]

Ed,

The man knows his stuff. Hopefully next time you will get the "real" host of Yale.

PS. A little hidden secret is he loves the place more than I do

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
Remember, the only people who are going to buy the Flynn book are those of us who know who he is already.  "Joe Bolw and Jane Doe" aren't going to buy it let along read it.  What did Brad Klein say at one time about how many copies of any one golf architecture books are sold - 1000 give or take 500  

As far as Yale, someone must like the recent work going on as it seems to be moving up in stature.  I have not played there in five years or more so I can't comment on the "improvements".
Mark

[Tim_Weiman]

BCrosby:

Is #8 at Yale really a "short" par 4? How long does something have to be in your book to reach mid length?

[GeoffreyC]

Mark

Golf magazine recently put Yale back on their list.  I question strongly how many raters saw the changes made by Rulewich and the committee of amateurs that drag him around by a leech to tell him how to interpret a 1934 aerial.  I think it was a BIG mistake putting Yale on that list.

It has also crept up to #81 on the GW classic list. That too is a mistake in my not so humble opinion.  That is living on past glory.  Any one with one blind eye and the other barely able to detect light could recognize the butchering that has been taking place over the past few years.

[BCrosby]

Tim -

Agreed. No. 8 is probably better described as mid-length.

[Mark_Fine]

Geoffrey,
That was my impression about Yale as well but I have not seen the changes myself so am withholding my opinion until I do.
Mark