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mark chalfant

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Essex County ( NJ) design credit ?
« on: September 08, 2003, 09:50:06 PM »
George Bahto is doing a wonderful  job of restoring this gem.

I  believe  Tilly is respnsible for  1-6,  and 9.........correct ?

Who should  the remaining holes be attributed to ?

Who designed them ?

Who built them ?

Are there any  vintage drawings or letters that
clarify  Essex  Countys true architectural lineage  ?

thanks for help on this !


George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Essex County ( NJ) design credit ?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2003, 12:07:15 AM »
Mark: ECCC had a course on this property before the present Raynor/ Banks East, and what was the West courses (the West was sold off) were built. It was a Tillie course - pretty rudimentary.

The present course, what was once the East course, now the Essex County CC course (the name a bit misleading because it is not a "county" course but is private and has always been ..... (continuing...) the present private course and the original West courses were built by Charlie Banks .... however .... the East was designed by both Raynor and Banks but Raynor died and Banks actually built the course.

The club rebelled with just Banks' name and not the Raynor name at the time, claiming Banks's was not the stature of Raynor but Banks had a contract and would not let them out of it. He told them that if they were happy with the East course he would continue with the second course, the West. If not he was out of there.

All went well and he actually designed the entire second course himself - which was a really fine course, at least as good as the East (originally), if not better. I played there for nearly 20 years.

So today's private club: designed by both, built by Banks according to their plan ......... again, a "however" - the club "shorted" Banks, not allowing all the 143 bunkers to be built - only about 83 were built.

OK, about the Tillie greens:  

The club also insisted Banks use some of the old Tillie greens - yes, 1 thru 6 + the 9th (plus he had to use a few on the other course also).  I'm sure Banks reworked the 1st, not the 2nd (although I would guess he played with greenside bunkers there), the 3rd, the 4th and 5th but the 6th is a Tillie-style Redan and the 9ths is certainly not the work of Banks.

From what I understand about Seth Raynor - I doubt if he would have stood for this. He was pretty tough about that stuff. Banks, now on his own and basically not much more than a rookie, was fighting to keep their company going. He was also building Rock Spring right down the road a bit.

I think Banks kept those fairways first 6 fairways but probably expanded the greens.

When you played ECCC you would see the first 6 holes didn't look like typical Raynor/Banks ..... but when you got to 7 and on (excepting the 9th) you get full-out Raynor (Banks). Some excellent greenside bunkering. Lots of really god holes there.

The lineage of the club is well documented and there is a lot of material, all of which I have. You might want to get a copy of their Cl/history if you're that interested (e-mail me and I'll give you the contact, if you like). Friend Billy Quirin (Golf Courses Of the Met Area) wrote the history.

I have the original Raynor Banks concept drawing with all the bunkering which served as the guild for the fine Gil Hanse Master Plan (I helped a bit with the bunker phase).

The 80-some odd present bunker are completely restored (thank you for the kind words) and now it appears I'll be getting my wish-list of strategic bunkers that never got put in, which will really add greatly to this great course - these are all fairway bunkers - greenside is as per original plan.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Essex County ( NJ) design credit ?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2003, 10:07:58 AM »
George Bahto,

How many of the strategic bunkers do you think that you'll be building, and on what holes.

Essex County always played like two different golf courses.
The first 6 and the last 12.

It's a wonderful golf course as is the west, where I played my first 18 holes with the three Cestone brothers in the mid fifties
Their dad and uncle were members of The Knoll for many years and that's how I got to play there so often.

Good luck on adding as many of the missing bunkers as you can.

Why doesn't the club want to add ALL of them ?

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Essex County ( NJ) design credit ?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2003, 11:39:43 AM »
Pat you asked: "How many of the strategic bunkers do you think that you'll be building, and on what holes."

not fully OK'd yet but should be adding:
* about 3 more on 7-fairway;
* one short left of 8-green;
* hah - you've got to see 9 - have put back in the original deep pit!! - don't go there!!;
* hopefully 2 short of 10-grn;
* 13 - one more in the 2nd shot landing area;
* great stuff on 16 .....  a Prin Nose bunker complex(yep) as well as another associated with it about 70-yards short of the green (what a great green!!)
* additional one on 17th - a great hole - up short of the bailout area, short left of the green ..... 17 could be the best par-4 on the course when I get done
* I've added a neatt bunker on the 18th-tee-shot on the left side - no more straight away - now plays slight dog-leg

plus a few more

they've taken all the gardens (???) behind the great 11th - it looks great

lots of tree removal going on - the place looks terrific

you also said: ".on the West ... where I played my first 18 holes with the three Cestone brothers"  I knew Mike Sr very well

also asked: "Why doesn't the club want to add ALL of them ?" .... answer is easy:   $$$$$$$$$
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Essex County ( NJ) design credit ?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2003, 12:56:08 PM »
George Bahto,

That sounds great.

It also sounds as though, with time, and a commitment to a long range plan, and money, perhaps all of the intended bunkers can be installed.

Mike Sr won the USGA Senior Amateur I believe.

Mike Jr was a member of Scranton CC, and may still be there.

I'm anxious to visit and play Essex County.

Good luck.

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Essex County ( NJ) design credit ?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2003, 05:42:49 PM »
George,     thanks  for your  informative reply.

Glad to hear  more bunkers  are  likely to be crafted !!

I especially look forward to  more on   seven and
sixteen

will they be staggered along  7 or mostly  in  landing area
for the drive  ?
thanks...

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Essex County ( NJ) design credit ?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2003, 08:03:47 PM »
Mark: I'm planning 3 more bunkers on hole-7. One on the left way down the landing area to take away what the membership calles their "power-alley" - another on the right around the pond area (pond on hole 8) and another one up near the green on the left some 100-125-yards from the green.  It should look really great. These were all part of the original concept. Nothing equidistant looking.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson