[Dan King]

Is anyone aware of any study demonstrating the financial benefits of the golf course of rankings?

Is there anything demonstrating a raise or a drop in rankings can result in a gain or loss in dollars?

Cheers,
Dan King

By all means screw their women and drink their booze but never write one word about their bloody awful golf course.
  --Henry Longhurst (advise to a fellow journalist being pressed to make a trip to a new expensive golf development)

[RJ_Daley]

I reckon it would be difficult to get actual figures off profit and loss, balance sheets and financial documents from various private clubs or public enterprises.  Perhaps only the government entity owned operations would have financial records available to view and compare.  And, I have heard even those muni's are evasive in sharing.  Of course the universe of ranked muni's is rather small as another limiting factor.

But one would have to consider that most of the CCFADs, many private clubs, and many privately owned open to the public courses that are in the running for top 200 or so, seem to bend over or lay down prostrate before the rankers of various ranking panels when they come to visit. 

Must be something to it besides collective member ego, or prestige....

[Adrian_Stiff]

We reckoned just being in the Golf World Top 100 for GB & Ire was worth £1,000,000 on the valuation of a golf course/club. If managed in a commercial way it drives (PPG) the averaged Green fee up £10, which on 25,000 rounds should bring in £250,000 extra revenue on a price earnings of 4 its easy to demonstrate the value. When you talk about top 50 courses the figures could be ten/twenty fold.

Some clubs use the high green fee to offset low member subscription rates.

[Tom_Doak]

Adrian:

I'd never looked at it quite that way.  Now that I think about it, a top 100 US or World ranking is worth that much more than your estimate.  It's easily worth a bump of $25 to $50 on the green fee.

Of course, the developer may have to pay the architect some of those extra earnings up front in order to deliver a top 100 course.  In fact some architects charge as if they succeed 100% of the time!

[Mike_Young]

For the last 25 or 30 years the rankings had as much to do with RE values as they did green fees.  I am sure that many of the advertising agencies which worked for various developers knew exactly what rankings were worth.  Green fees were peanuts compared to lots...

[Jonathan Mallard]

I reckon it would be difficult to get actual figures off profit and loss, balance sheets and financial documents from various private clubs or public enterprises.  Perhaps only the government entity owned operations would have financial records available to view and compare.  And, I have heard even those muni's are evasive in sharing.  Of course the universe of ranked muni's is rather small as another limiting factor.

But one would have to consider that most of the CCFADs, many private clubs, and many privately owned open to the public courses that are in the running for top 200 or so, seem to bend over or lay down prostrate before the rankers of various ranking panels when they come to visit. 

Must be something to it besides collective member ego, or prestige....

Shouldn't be that hard at all. Shinnecock has had a link to it's 990 form posted before. You can easily find some others.

Where it probably gets a little tricky is finding enough clubs that have published data that reflect swings in rankings that appreciably affect their income statement. That, and finding enough data points to provide a statistically significant sample.

[Carl Rogers]

Last week, I played another round at the Cascades.  Would the course set-up (high rough & rock hard greens) be part of this equation? creating a high scoring resistance?  For a resort course, I thought it was a bit over the top.

The intrinsic challenge of the course are the fairly smallish greens with complicated up, down & hanging stances in the landing zones that would seem to create enough of a test.

[Jud_T]

Well,

Here's an example at the American Club:

Irish  $190  #172 GW (Modern)
Meadow Valley  $190  N/A
River  $275  #91 GD, #89 GM, #56 GW (Modern)
Whistling Straights  $385 (not including required caddie)  #22 GD,  #28 GM,  #6 GW (Modern)

It might be worth even more as I highly doubt that the Irish and Meadow would be able to demand a $190 green fee in Nowhere, WI if it weren't for the halo effect of the other courses.

[Andrew Buck]

Well,

Here's an example at the American Club:

Irish  $190  #172 GW (Modern)
Meadow Valley  $190  N/A
River  $275  #91 GD, #89 GM, #56 GW (Modern)
Whistling Straights  $385 (not including required caddie)  #22 GD,  #28 GM,  #6 GW (Modern)

It might be worth even more as I highly doubt that the Irish and Meadow would be able to demand a $190 green fee in Nowhere, WI if it weren't for the halo effect of the other courses.

How much of that is "because of the ranking" vs actually being better golf courses?  No doubt major championships and rankings help ... But if there were no rankings or tournaments, it took one round on the Bay cours at Kapalua to know the Plantation course was worth double and I wouldn't play the Bay again, regardless of rankings.

[Joel_Stewart]

Here's an example at the American Club:

Irish  $190  #172 GW (Modern)
Meadow Valley  $190  N/A
River  $275  #91 GD, #89 GM, #56 GW (Modern)
Whistling Straights  $385 (not including required caddie)  #22 GD,  #28 GM,  #6 GW (Modern)

Will they adjust the rates (lower) when Sand Valley opens?   

[Jud_T]

Here's an example at the American Club:

Irish  $190  #172 GW (Modern)
Meadow Valley  $190  N/A
River  $275  #91 GD, #89 GM, #56 GW (Modern)
Whistling Straights  $385 (not including required caddie)  #22 GD,  #28 GM,  #6 GW (Modern)

Will they adjust the rates (lower) when Sand Valley opens?   

Probably not because Joe Sixpack will continue to pay up for courses he saw the pros play on TV and views.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

In the USA, a big name golf course architect was more important in developing a private residential golf community:

http://www.golfcourserealty.com/features/dye-nicklaus-fazio-buying-golf-course-property-real-estate-5599.htm

I think TV exposure is more important than magazine rankings for public/resort venues- Sawgrass, Doral, Pinehurst, AmericanClub, PGA West and even Bethpage. Of course, there are exceptions-Bandon Dunes and Streamsong among them.

[Josh Stevens]

Or perhaps a different question, at what point does it start to make an impact, especially when talking about private clubs that would not want Joe Sixpack within a hundred miles of the place.

At the top end in the US I am sure it is financially irrelevant, and so more of a pride thing, but elsewhere in the world it does have an impact as the economics of golf clubs are different.

I am not sure, but I suspect that lifting a few notches does make a difference to visitors fees, trade day fees and perhaps adds some support beneath the nomination and annual fees in these troubled times.  So perhaps it doesn't mean you can charge more, but it may mean you don't have to charge less when times are tough.

My track nudged back up into the national top 10 a few years back, and that does make a difference to its perception and that translates into dollars. Nudging up into the top 50 however does not have the same impact.

[Carl Rogers]

Tobacco Road is a bit less pricey than other very good to excellent courses in the area ... Dormie, Pine Needles, Mid Pines.  

[Tom_Doak]

Tobacco Road is a bit less pricey than other very good to excellent courses in the area ... Dormie, Pine Needles, Mip Pines. 

That's just location.  All the others are in "Pinehurst" and get a price bump for being in a resort area.  Tobacco Road is too far away to get the bump, even though many people who are going to Pinehurst stop through there.

[Ian Andrew]

Is there anything demonstrating a raise or a drop in rankings can result in a gain or loss in dollars?

Dan,

The flow of traffic dropped at Highlands Links when it fell off the list despite the bump that Cabot Links should have produced.
Conditioning was an issue, but once it fell of the list, fewer people were willing to risk a bad week of weather and wet playing conditions.


I played some spotty golf in the UK in the last few years seeking out the "other" links in between.
I prefer them and in many ways I prefer a little less perfection.
I wish Highlands attracted the same mindset.

[Dan King]

If there were any such study I was going to use it as a baseline to compare potential financial benefits of using the National Register of Historic Places -- and something like a master list of golf courses maintaining sufficient integrity to their historic significant times.

Cheers,
Dan King

It is within the power of the legislature to determine that the community should be beautiful as well as healthy, spacious as well as clean, well balanced as well as carefully patrolled.
 -- Justice William Douglas Berman v. Parker

[Jeff Bergeron]

I don't think there is any question that a national/ global ranking is important to the brand of a club. The better the brand the more you can charge. Transfer fees, dues and guest fees are all increased with a better brand and benefit the club financially. That is why the integrity of the 'raters' is important. I believe this varies widely based upon the publication.

[Doug Bolls]

Of course it makes a difference - the rankings matter when I'm going on vacation and looking for a place to play.
Example:  I'm going to the north east in June and want to play a round in each state we visit.  I went to Golfweek's rankings of "Best Places You Can Play" and began to set my itinerary.  Maine=Kebo Valley;  NH=Portsmouth CC;  VT=Okemo Valley;  CT=Wintonbury Hills;  RI=Triggs Memorial.  I don't know anything about any of these courses except for the pictures I've seen on the web sites and the rankings in Golfweek.  I would say there is significant financial benefit in having a high rating in the rankings - as a consumer I don't know how else to get information on where to play. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Of course it makes a difference - the rankings matter when I'm going on vacation and looking for a place to play.
Example:  I'm going to the north east in June and want to play a round in each state we visit.  I went to Golfweek's rankings of "Best Places You Can Play" and began to set my itinerary.  Maine=Kebo Valley;  NH=Portsmouth CC;  VT=Okemo Valley;  CT=Wintonbury Hills;  RI=Triggs Memorial.  I don't know anything about any of these courses except for the pictures I've seen on the web sites and the rankings in Golfweek.  I would say there is significant financial benefit in having a high rating in the rankings - as a consumer I don't know how else to get information on where to play.  

I find this an odd post from someone who has played close to 1000 courses.  Do you really not know a thing about Wintonbury Hills?  While I have also used the rankings as starting point in deciding where to play they play a very small role.  As a matter of fact on my recent trip to Lexington they played no role at all in that I didn't even know Idle Hour was ranked until I returned from my trip.  I used Golfclubatlas to search for the best courses in the region and GolfNow for which were public and on sale.

So, as a guy who so famously plays a course a day on his trips, how do you really go about finding what courses you may find interesting and accepting?  I can't believe that the rankings play anymore than a very small part.

I played with another 1000 course guy once and at the conclusion of our round he pulled out a large binder full of courses of where he had and could play.  It was fascinating as we decided where we would play next.  Now that binder was a valuable source of information.

[Doug Bolls]

John - I don't have a big binder or anything like that.  I do use the rankings as a starting point along with what I can find here on GCA.  I always look for a scorecard to see if there is a set of tees that I think will fit my game.  I do try to find out who the architect was and have been known to chose one course over another just based on that. 
However, I don't think I am typical in choosing where I play - I would guess that most of the public golfers go by the published rankings.  In that regard, I think there is significant financial advantage to rating highly there.

[Scott McWethy]

I think Cog Hill (Dubsdread course) in the Chicagoland area is an example of a decent course that charges (or did charge) a lot of money to play there.  With the Western Open and the U.S. Amateur on it's pedigree, people were lining up to pay big bucks to get their brains beat in by a lackluster, long golf course.  I don't know what they charge these days since it's not in the rotation for the big tournaments any more, but it amazes me what some people are willing to dish out so they can say they played the course that the Western Open or the U.S. Amateur was played on.

[PCCraig]

I think Cog Hill (Dubsdread course) in the Chicagoland area is an example of a decent course that charges (or did charge) a lot of money to play there.  With the Western Open and the U.S. Amateur on it's pedigree, people were lining up to pay big bucks to get their brains beat in by a lackluster, long golf course.  I don't know what they charge these days since it's not in the rotation for the big tournaments any more, but it amazes me what some people are willing to dish out so they can say they played the course that the Western Open or the U.S. Amateur was played on.

They charge $155 before 4pm.

[John Kavanaugh]

Cog Hill is an example of a course getting killed by GolfWeek and not missing a beat. I don't believe a single example can be shown of a financial benefit or harm coming from a GolfWeek ranking. It is one of the great cons of modern sport.

Ballyneal and Lawsonia are two examples of getting zero push from being highly ranked by GolfWeek. Victoria National didn't hit her financial stride until she dropped from the GolfWeek top 100.  I'm sure there are 396 other examples.

The real question is:  Would golf be any different financially without magazine rankings?  If anything golf would be healthier.

[Scott McWethy]

I think Cog Hill (Dubsdread course) in the Chicagoland area is an example of a decent course that charges (or did charge) a lot of money to play there.  With the Western Open and the U.S. Amateur on it's pedigree, people were lining up to pay big bucks to get their brains beat in by a lackluster, long golf course.  I don't know what they charge these days since it's not in the rotation for the big tournaments any more, but it amazes me what some people are willing to dish out so they can say they played the course that the Western Open or the U.S. Amateur was played on.

They charge $155 before 4pm.

Heck, what do they charge after 4PM?  I'd be interested in knowing who would be willing to pay more than $100 to play that course.  There's so much out there for less than $100.

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