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Martin Lehmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Changes at the Old Course
« on: May 16, 2015, 04:14:34 PM »
In about two months from now, The Open will be played at The Old Course. The discussion on the recent changes made at the golf course has died down quite a bit. I have seen the results with my own eyes and think the job has been carried out in an excellent manner. Any new thoughts on the matter?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2015, 04:41:45 PM »
No new thoughts  :)

i.e. They shouldn't have made any changes, and the changes will have virtually no effect on the result of The Open.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2015, 05:09:40 PM »
I'm playing TOC on Monday. It will be interesting to see the changes. I agree with Tom... I don't think there is a legitimate reason to justify what was done.

Golf in Scotland has become BIG business. It is attracting big players like Kohler and Trump. I cannot believe how fast the American ideals and standards are being incorporated into the Scottish model. The next thing you know the courses will have attendants meeting your car and lifting your clubs from the trunk... wait, they are already doing that at the Castle Course.  :'(
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2015, 01:27:34 AM »
Michael you will struggle to spot the changes unless you know the course well.
Cave Nil Vino

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2015, 02:39:15 AM »
Yeah, the cynical part of me will hope that scores are in fact even lower, so as to dissuade or convince people that it was fine as it was. Of course, such a result could lead to more changes, and that is the last, worst, possible thing that could happen.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2015, 02:59:42 AM »
If they don't pin that back left segment of 11 for one round of the Open after all the outcry and change, I will be even madder!
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2015, 03:31:31 AM »
I'm playing TOC on Monday. It will be interesting to see the changes. I agree with Tom... I don't think there is a legitimate reason to justify what was done.

Golf in Scotland has become BIG business. It is attracting big players like Kohler and Trump. I cannot believe how fast the American ideals and standards are being incorporated into the Scottish model. The next thing you know the courses will have attendants meeting your car and lifting your clubs from the trunk... wait, they are already doing that at the Castle Course.  :'(

And I disdain that all of it is rightfully referenced as an American ideal... that branded puffery, rapacious acquisition, and faux "tradition" have become known as American ideals is the unkindest cut of all.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2015, 08:47:09 AM »
I walked the old course last Sunday with Michael Moore, and the first tiem he took out his camera from his man bag, I hear him say, under his breath:  "'Photo!'  I think were not in Kennebunckport any more....."

It was my first time too, at the changed holes (except for 2 and 17 which I saw last winter), and it all looks good, and the course is in great shape for this time of the year.  The most significant change continues to be the new right green side bunkers on 2, but they seem to work wel-- not really affecting the golfer's strategy for the Sunday/center-green pin placement, but strengthening a few potential pin positions on the flat/rgiht side of the green.  The changes on 7 fairway seem to be more of a tidying up than significant change.  The new bunkers on the right half of 9 fairway will allow for a pin position which will make the pros think, and tighten up the tee shot for the casual visitor.  Michael and I searched hard to find the new putative back-left pin position on the 11th, but to no avail.  There is a finger long right (on the 11th's part of the double green) which seems new and would offer an occasional change from the normal "behind the front bunker" position.  As for the Road Hole bunker, it has been re-revetted again, and functions prety much as it has for the last 40 years or so, even if it is better manicured, as is the trend these days.

Michael should be back home soon, and I hope he (as a sophisticated observer but complete newbie to TOC) will chime in with his comments.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 08:50:56 AM by Rich Goodale »
Life is good.

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Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2015, 08:55:55 AM »
No new thoughts  :)

i.e. They shouldn't have made any changes, and the changes will have virtually no effect on the result of The Open.
11th green change was essential for agronomic reasons, you had 1000 squared metres plus of green with about 80 squared metres pinnable. Now its probably up to 300. Hardly anyone would know it was done if they were not told.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
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Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2015, 08:57:48 AM »
If they don't pin that back left segment of 11 for one round of the Open after all the outcry and change, I will be even madder!
It is not a tough pin, it would not surprise me if they did not use it.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2015, 09:58:42 AM »
 8)
American ideals or ambitions re big business?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 10:01:52 AM by Steve Lang »
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Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2015, 10:56:02 AM »
Just like all of the previous changes at TOC, they won't have a material impact on scoring at the Open.  Just look at the winning scores--they've remained pretty much the same over the years.  Calm weather--good scores, poor weather--poor scores

Keep the course the same.  No tinkering needed

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2015, 11:03:26 AM »
To quote Scott Macpherson on changes to the Old Course over the years:

"I was amazed just how much the Old Course had changed."

Martin Lehmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2015, 02:59:12 PM »
Found this on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-nJf2lIuDE. Analytical, factual and objective. Well done by this young man!

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2015, 03:13:11 PM »
Found this on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-nJf2lIuDE. Analytical, factual and objective. Well done by this young man!

Interesting to see how the bunker (IMO) becomes worse and worse with every iteration.....

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2015, 03:47:18 PM »
Found this on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-nJf2lIuDE. Analytical, factual and objective. Well done by this young man!

Interesting to see how the bunker (IMO) becomes worse and worse with every iteration.....

My issue with this particular change was never the actual bunker shape and style. I understand how bunker shapes change slightly on a frequent basis.

It was always about altering the contour of the front left portion of the green.

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2015, 06:26:06 PM »
Found this on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-nJf2lIuDE. Analytical, factual and objective. Well done by this young man!

Interesting to see how the bunker (IMO) becomes worse and worse with every iteration.....

Frank,
You're in the design business, what do you mean by 'worse and worse'? Can you describe what you mean more clearly?

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2015, 09:39:20 PM »
Found this on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-nJf2lIuDE. Analytical, factual and objective. Well done by this young man!

I agree, the kid did a nice job. Wonder if he posts on gca.com.

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2015, 03:29:27 AM »
Found this on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-nJf2lIuDE. Analytical, factual and objective. Well done by this young man!

Interesting to see how the bunker (IMO) becomes worse and worse with every iteration.....

Frank,
You're in the design business, what do you mean by 'worse and worse'? Can you describe what you mean more clearly?

Scott, sorry for being unclear, what I mean is that it loses more and more of the original natural rugged look with each iteration.
In the last bunker iteration the video shows (2002 I believe), it literally has become a pac-man mouth.

JJShanley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2015, 08:28:52 AM »
Frank: It find it ironic that older British links courses have sought to present cleaner, crisper bunkers while newer American courses go for the rugged look.  Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. 

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2015, 08:49:05 AM »
Many of the bunkers at TOC and indeed elsewhere have been around for a very long time in one guise or another. Who is to say what they looked like originally ? Did the Road Hole bunker form out a naturally occuring blow out or was it man made from the outset with a revetted face ?

I don't know the answer to that but interested to hear if anyone does.

Niall

Gary Sato

Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2015, 03:11:43 PM »
Frank: It find it ironic that older British links courses have sought to present cleaner, crisper bunkers while newer American courses go for the rugged look. 

Very interesting statement which is true in many ways. 

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2015, 04:10:51 PM »
I watched the kid's video and thought he did a nice job, but the 2004 photo he used didn't look like the Road Hole to me.
 
I could certainly be wrong, having been there just once, but the houses in the background don't look right.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2015, 04:26:35 PM »
Rick,

Take a look at them via Google Maps

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Changes at the Old Course
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2015, 07:46:28 PM »
Rick

Your still is definitely the RHB, but I am not convinced it is a shot from the Open.  In 2004 the Open was at Troon.

I prefer the eroded straight face style of bunker, but not lets get caught up in the style.  What I find very interesting is that the front left of the green/collar was re-shaped to allow more freedom for balls to wander into the bunker.  I know some see this as criminal, but I am a big fan of collecting bunkers...short grass doing its job when a player is off-line. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 07:52:01 PM by Sean_A »
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