[Andrew Bernstein]

As land becomes more scarce, are we nearing a point where recycling golf sites might make the most sense?

I'm not talking about restoration or even mild redesign. What I have envisioned is taking a set of acres already devoted to golf and starting from scratch. A new architect, new hole corridors, the potential for adding or subtracting water hazards. A whole new course on a plot of land that is probably in an area of a town or city that would be impossible to find, purchase, and build a golf course in this age if an older course weren't already there.

Surely, there are some good to great sites out there where, for whatever reason, the course fails to live up to the potential and is ripe for recycling. Instead of taking new golf courses to very remote sites, should we start looking closer to urban cores for those opportunities?

[Tom_Doak]

Andrew:

That's a wonderful idea but it is obviously only achievable on a case-by-case basis.

The main problem is that once a golf course is really to the point of needing a total do-over, the property value is greater for other uses than it is for golf.  That's what has driven golf out of the urban core, as much as anything.  So, the only place where your idea is likely to work is the proverbial "wrong side of town".

[Michael Whitaker]

Andrew:

That's a wonderful idea but it is obviously only achievable on a case-by-case basis.

The main problem is that once a golf course is really to the point of needing a total do-over, the property value is greater for other uses than it is for golf.  That's what has driven golf out of the urban core, as much as anything.  So, the only place where your idea is likely to work is the proverbial "wrong side of town".

We have had a few of these "recycles" completed in SC... the most notable of which is Wexford Plantation, a private course in an exclusive development on Hilton Head Island. The original mediocre course was completely wiped off the planet and replaced with a new spectacular one. It is one of the most outstanding transformations I have ever seen! The work was done by Brandon Johnson of Palmer Design and it turned the course into a "must play" on Hilton Head.

I'm not sure why the members decided to spend the money to replace the course. Not sure if it could possibly help that much with property values or membership demand? But, I'm glad they did!!! 

[A.G._Crockett]

Andrew:

That's a wonderful idea but it is obviously only achievable on a case-by-case basis.

The main problem is that once a golf course is really to the point of needing a total do-over, the property value is greater for other uses than it is for golf.  That's what has driven golf out of the urban core, as much as anything.  So, the only place where your idea is likely to work is the proverbial "wrong side of town".

We have had a few of these "recycles" completed in SC... the most notable of which is Wexford Plantation, a private course in an exclusive development on Hilton Head Island. The original mediocre course was completely wiped off the planet and replaced with a new spectacular one. It is one of the most outstanding transformations I have ever seen! The work was done by Brandon Johnson of Palmer Design and it turned the course into a "must play" on Hilton Head.

I'm not sure why the members decided to spend the money to replace the course. Not sure if it could possibly help that much with property values or membership demand? But, I'm glad they did!!! 

Mike,
I'm curious to know if you have heard anything about Jaguar's Lair at Ocean Ridge Plantation.  It has been in the planning stages for years now, with Tim Cate as the GCA, but the project seems to be on hold?

Unfortunately, it also runs counter to the thread's premise, I think; TWO affordable courses (Angels Trace North and South) used to build one course that will be more upscale.  But I like Tim Cate's work a lot, and am curious to know what's going on.

[Michael Whitaker]

Andrew:

That's a wonderful idea but it is obviously only achievable on a case-by-case basis.

The main problem is that once a golf course is really to the point of needing a total do-over, the property value is greater for other uses than it is for golf.  That's what has driven golf out of the urban core, as much as anything.  So, the only place where your idea is likely to work is the proverbial "wrong side of town".

We have had a few of these "recycles" completed in SC... the most notable of which is Wexford Plantation, a private course in an exclusive development on Hilton Head Island. The original mediocre course was completely wiped off the planet and replaced with a new spectacular one. It is one of the most outstanding transformations I have ever seen! The work was done by Brandon Johnson of Palmer Design and it turned the course into a "must play" on Hilton Head.

I'm not sure why the members decided to spend the money to replace the course. Not sure if it could possibly help that much with property values or membership demand? But, I'm glad they did!!! 

Mike,
I'm curious to know if you have heard anything about Jaguar's Lair at Ocean Ridge Plantation.  It has been in the planning stages for years now, with Tim Cate as the GCA, but the project seems to be on hold?

Unfortunately, it also runs counter to the thread's premise, I think; TWO affordable courses (Angels Trace North and South) used to build one course that will be more upscale.  But I like Tim Cate's work a lot, and am curious to know what's going on.

AG,

I'm out of loop on NC courses. Tim Cate and Ocean Ridge are NC operations. Sorry!

Mike

[hhuffines]

Still hoping for good news on the Pinehurst plans for the Pit property.

[Joel_Stewart]

 What I have envisioned is taking a set of acres already devoted to golf and starting from scratch. A new architect, new hole corridors, the potential for adding or subtracting water hazards. A whole new course on a plot of land that is probably in an area of a town or city that would be impossible to find, purchase, and build a golf course in this age if an older course weren't already there.

I call this a complete renovation.  Its happened quite a bit. 

Tom Doak told me about 2 such courses that went from lousy to world top 100.  One of these is world top 10.  Can you name it?   

[Andrew Bernstein]

I call this a complete renovation.  Its happened quite a bit. 

Tom Doak told me about 2 such courses that went from lousy to world top 100.  One of these is world top 10.  Can you name it?   

I wouldn't call it a renovation. If we're to think of it in housing terms, it would be a tear-down.

[Jeff_Brauer]

In an off line discussion, it was pointed out that even Shinnecock Hills has migrated about 50% from its original location.

Northland in Duluth slid "up a hill" when they brought Ross in.  Very common.

And there are many total redos on the same property.

[A.G._Crockett]

A rather bizarre Georgia example

The Woodyard, a Cupp design near Savannah that was, I think, less than 5 years old and quite good, was bulldozed and rebuilt as a Norman design named Savannah Quarters.  (I will simply say that the reviews of the new course have been "mixed".) This was done simply to have Norman's name on the course; additionally, Norman was an investor in the real estate side of the project.

This has to be close to a record for an existing course being recycled.

[Gary Sato]

This has to be close to a record for an existing course being recycled.

Not really close.  Norman had another course in Arizona that was so bad it was rebuilt by Fazio before it opened.

[A.G._Crockett]

This has to be close to a record for an existing course being recycled.

Not really close.  Norman had another course in Arizona that was so bad it was rebuilt by Fazio before it opened.

Gary, I think that would be "precycling" rather than recycling.  Different category...

[Zack Molnar]

Wasn't Sweetens Cove a "recycle"?

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