[Matthew Petersen]

St. Marlo outside of Atlanta.

It is such a poorly designed course it is almost laughable.  But I like it!

 

I feel that way about Rancho Mañana in Carefree, AZ. It's a terrible, terrible design. And yet there are a lot of shots out there that are pretty fun to hit.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Superior National in Lutsen. I grew up playing it once a summer with my dad and it does have some amazing views and few quirky holes that are unique, but for the most part is quite meh from a GCA standpoint.

The good news is Jeff Brauer is working on making 18 of the 27 a real golf course so it will be"graduating" up the Doak scale soon.

[JJShanley]

I enjoy Craigielaw in East Lothian, but really only because I play it with my dad when I get back to Scotia.  Might take a child or grandchild there later in life for a trip down memory lane, but would have no desire to play it otherwise.

[DFarron]

Hawk's Nest GC, Wooster, OH.
Bunkers need blown up and sand put in, give the grass some care and you have one of the best courses in NE Ohio. Holes are a cross between Prairie Dunes and Muirfield Village. This course has NEVER seen any love maintenance wise.

[Tim Leahy]

Fall River GC, Fall River, CA (old Clark Glasson design)

Crystal Springs, Burlingame, CA

Skywest GC, Hayward, CA

Del Rio CC, Brawley, CA (Home of the Elmer Sears Lettuce Tournament)

Boulder City GC, Boulder City, NV


I have never played Skywest because it seems to have been "under repair" for at least the last 30 years.

[Mark Pritchett]

Dormie Club has some good holes further away from the wetlands on the property.  Still a pretty fun course.

[Kevin Lynch]

Dormie Club has some good holes further away from the wetlands on the property.  Still a pretty fun course.

I would never imagine Dormie (or any C&C course) to be in the "Good Bad" category that JNC describes.  Are you thinking Dormie can't sniff a 4 on the Doak Scale? 

[GLawson]

Agreed, Dormie is a great track.  I predict a 7 if not an 8 when the next Confidential Guide comes out.

[Mark Pritchett]

Dormie Club has some good holes further away from the wetlands on the property.  Still a pretty fun course.

I would never imagine Dormie (or any C&C course) to be in the "Good Bad" category that JNC describes.  Are you thinking Dormie can't sniff a 4 on the Doak Scale? 

Have you played every C&C course? 

[Rees Milikin]

Dormie Club has some good holes further away from the wetlands on the property.  Still a pretty fun course.

I would never imagine Dormie (or any C&C course) to be in the "Good Bad" category that JNC describes.  Are you thinking Dormie can't sniff a 4 on the Doak Scale? 

Even Sugarloaf Mountain?

[Rob Marshall]

What are your favorite "Good Bad Courses"?

A "Good Bad Course" is a course that:

• you like even though you know it doesn't sniff a 4 on the Doak scale.
• has at least half a dozen good golf holes but has a few stinkers as well.
• could be much improved with better bunkering/aesthetics/ownership/conditioning.
• can be described as a "guilty pleasure." Some might think of it as the Legally Blonde of golf courses.
• you won't necessarily tell your non-GCA friends you're playing this weekend.

A couple that spring to mind:
Lekarica
Misty Creek
Terry Hills
Wild Wood (formerly Thunder Bay), or any other Pete Craig design
Sandpiper

Here's two Pete Craig courses for you:

Clifton Springs and my home course Penfield CC.

I thought the East course at Bellaire CC in Clearwater was a lot of fun and it doesn't get much respect.

[Kevin Lynch]

Dormie Club has some good holes further away from the wetlands on the property.  Still a pretty fun course.

I would never imagine Dormie (or any C&C course) to be in the "Good Bad" category that JNC describes.  Are you thinking Dormie can't sniff a 4 on the Doak Scale? 

Have you played every C&C course? 

No - certainly not.  I can't speak for their entire body of work, but I don't get the sense they create "Legally Blonde" class of courses (using JNC's phrase).

I'll withdraw my comment re: C&C courses in general, but I'll stand firmly in saying there's no way Dormie "barely sniffs a 4."

In general, I think these courses are going to be ones that aren't widely known or previously discussed (but I may be wrong).

[Kevin Lynch]

JNC -

Have to agree about Terry Hills in this category.  Plenty of bland holes, but enough unique & fun holes to keep your interest.

When I saw this topic, I thought about Coudersport Country Club.  Some really awkward holes playing along the side of a mountain, but also some of the most fun I've played.  Plenty of heroic holes with Eagle thru Triple potential, and some jaw-dropping elevation changes.  The "Tips" max out at 5,800 yards, but I've never been bored playing there.

I think courses you'd expect to see in this thread may be the "homegrown" variety.  I think there was a thread a few years ago about "naive" golf design, in which there are holes laid out that no "serious" or "trained" designer would dare to propose.  

At Coudersport, I found my first kidney-shaped "Biarritz" green (complete with bunker guarding the inside) which was combined with a kickslope bank on the right side. The 3rd hole there is accidental genius that no serious architect ever would have attempted:

From the tee (only 322 and all downhill), but if you hit a draw, it better not hit the fairway first:



Right Fairway (The first pic flattens the landing area quite a bit - this gives you a better idea of the sideslope):



You can see the size of the swale on a fairly tiny green.  Play too close and you'll be funneled into the inside bunker:




Long look back shows what an extreme piece of property was used to create this hole:



Other holes that show the quirky / WTF? nature of this course:

The severely uphill 10th has a green that would have made Steamshovel Banks proud.


After climbing up past the 10th green, you continue to te uphill 11th - a 110 yard pitch carved out of the hillside with absolute death left.  



And what goes up, must come down - the precipitous 12th tee shot:



The severe landing zone on the short 15th:



The first time I played here, I swore multiple times about the ridiculous holes and rock hard conditions.  Now, it's one of my absolute favorite courses to play.  

[Kevin Lynch]

Here's two Pete Craig courses for you:

Clifton Springs and my home course Penfield CC.

I thought the East course at Bellaire CC in Clearwater was a lot of fun and it doesn't get much respect.

Rob -

JNC described Pete Craig's to me as "the William Harries of Rochester" (Harries did many public courses in Buffalo area).  Does some really neat things, but always some aspects are glaringly weak.  For Harries, his routings and use of slopes are great, but greens are weak.  Not sure what may be considered lacking for Craig, and Penfield's greens certainly aren't weak.

I don't think Penfield would neatly fit into a "Good Bad Course" category, as I have enough respect for that design.  It certainly could use a bit more tree removal, but the bones of a pretty decent course are there (the greens are great and really emphasize angle of attack).


As for Belleaire CC, I think you may be on to something.  I've played all of the West, and walked/played portions of the East.  The topography of that property lends itself to having a few grand holes followed by a number of bland clunkers. 

On the East, the first few holes going away from the clubhouse are fun, but then the flat portion of the course between Druid / Belleview Blvd seem to diminish the character.  The three holes across Druid (14/15/16) are great fun, and then the topography of the 18th is wonderful. 

On the West, there's similar strong stretches (3-6) before you hit the non-descript stretch of flatter holes from 7-12 (with a few bold greens attempting to salvage a fairly benign hole).  Then you hit the neat trio from 13-15 before being interrupted by a long, flat slog on 16.

[Mark Pritchett]

Kevin,

I agree that DC sniffs four, I actually missed that part of the criteria.  I enjoy DC but do not see it giving Sand Hills, Old Sandwich or even Cuscowilla a run anytime soon.   Add in the abysmal management of the place and and I start to view it as a guilty pleasure, especially when you have Pine Needles, Mid Pines, Forest Creek and Southern Pines in the area.

Best,

Mark

[Kevin Lynch]

Kevin,

I agree that DC sniffs four, I actually missed that part of the criteria.  I enjoy DC but do not see it giving Sand Hills, Old Sandwich or even Cuscowilla a run anytime soon.   Add in the abysmal management of the place and and I start to view it as a guilty pleasure, especially when you have Pine Needles, Mid Pines, Forest Creek and Southern Pines in the area.

Best,

Mark

Gotcha - I certainly wasn't thinking that Dormie competes with the courses you mentioned - just not that I'd ever feel I was taking a risk telling someone "I loved Dormie" for fear of being looked at cross-eyed.  But I do get your point re: management of their model.

Knowing JNC as much as I do, I think this ties into his Katy Perry obsession.  While JNC's one of the biggest music snobs out there, he can't help but admit he loves Katy Perry's songs (but not just because of her eye-candy).  He may be looking for that course with many redeeming qualities, but enough warts that you may be looked at cross-eyed if you declare a strong love for it.

[Rob Marshall]

Here's two Pete Craig courses for you:

Clifton Springs and my home course Penfield CC.

I thought the East course at Bellaire CC in Clearwater was a lot of fun and it doesn't get much respect.

Rob -

JNC described Pete Craig's to me as "the William Harries of Rochester" (Harries did many public courses in Buffalo area).  Does some really neat things, but always some aspects are glaringly weak.  For Harries, his routings and use of slopes are great, but greens are weak.  Not sure what may be considered lacking for Craig, and Penfield's greens certainly aren't weak.

I don't think Penfield would neatly fit into a "Good Bad Course" category, as I have enough respect for that design.  It certainly could use a bit more tree removal, but the bones of a pretty decent course are there (the greens are great and really emphasize angle of attack).


As for Belleaire CC, I think you may be on to something.  I've played all of the West, and walked/played portions of the East.  The topography of that property lends itself to having a few grand holes followed by a number of bland clunkers. 

On the East, the first few holes going away from the clubhouse are fun, but then the flat portion of the course between Druid / Belleview Blvd seem to diminish the character.  The three holes across Druid (14/15/16) are great fun, and then the topography of the 18th is wonderful. 

On the West, there's similar strong stretches (3-6) before you hit the non-descript stretch of flatter holes from 7-12 (with a few bold greens attempting to salvage a fairly benign hole).  Then you hit the neat trio from 13-15 before being interrupted by a long, flat slog on 16.

Glad to here you like Penfield's greens. When the speed is up they're  a challenge and I think under appreciated. We've been taking out a bunch of trees but have a long ways to go. I've been there 25 years and never get tired of the course. Based on some of Tom' ratings I don't suspect he would give it a 5.

[Joe Bausch]

Agreed, Dormie is a great track.  I predict a 7 if not an 8 when the next Confidential Guide comes out.

Here are some pics of Dormie from about two months ago (I loved the place, fwiw):

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/DormieClub/

[JNC Lyon]

Here's two Pete Craig courses for you:

Clifton Springs and my home course Penfield CC.

I thought the East course at Bellaire CC in Clearwater was a lot of fun and it doesn't get much respect.

Rob -

JNC described Pete Craig's to me as "the William Harries of Rochester" (Harries did many public courses in Buffalo area).  Does some really neat things, but always some aspects are glaringly weak.  For Harries, his routings and use of slopes are great, but greens are weak.  Not sure what may be considered lacking for Craig, and Penfield's greens certainly aren't weak.

Pete Craig's courses always have interesting greens. Check out Deerfield (formerly Craig Hill, another PC design that later downgraded its name) northwest of Rochester. It has a couple of interesting holes tee to green, but the greens are all wild. I always liked Deerfield and Wild Wood more than Clifton or Penfield. Both Clifton and Penfield need some chainsawing, and neither really gets me excited to play. I always liked Wild Wood because it had the dramatic terrain (particularly on the back nine) that others don't, and Deerfield appealed to me because it was so isolated and had such a bold set of greens.

Penfield, Clifton Springs, Wild Wood, and others by his name also fit this same bill--nothing too sophisticated from tee to green (mainly due to average routings at best), but the greens are a blast. If we combined Harries's routing with Craig's greens, we might have something fun.

And Kevin, are you saying you don't like Katy Perry?

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