Allan Ferguson Comments On Green Fees In Scotland

[Niall C]

Niall -

The green fee rate Ferguson quoted is 205 pounds, which is the rate as shown on the Royal Troon website for golf only. Granted, it is for one round on each of the two courses. Except for the 3 weeks at the end of the season, it is the only way one can get to play the Championship course at Troon. Lunch has nothing to do with it and a round thrown in on the Portland course has just a bit more than nothing to do with it. We both know likely 9 of 10 visitors to Troon are there to play the Championship course and have no intention of playing the Portland course.  

Mr. Ferguson also did not mention the little goodie bag you get with your green fee included at Castle Stuart, with tees, a course guide and a bag tag (plus range balls, use of a trolley and a bottle of water after the 12th hole!). Is that package more or less relevant than a round on the Portland?   
   
DT

David

I beg to differ. You are almost equating a round on a links course designed by Dr MacKenzie to a "complimentary" bag of tees and strokesaver which is more than a bit far fetched and I do like my goody bags. I also appreciate that at certain parts of the year you may have to take the two round package for a portion of the year but you do have the option to pay and play the championship course on its own at other times. Therefore Fergusson is being disingenious on two counts; firstly, ignoring that it is possible to play the championship course on its own at £150, and secondly not mentioning that the higher rate includes two rounds of golf.

Now I don't know of this guy, but his website certainly bums him up as being as a guide. You'd have thought therefore he would have been more transparent and informative with his comments, and indeed the fact that he doesn't mention the Portland course suggests he's fairly ignorant of it which doesn't give me much confidence in his qualities as a guide.

Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall

You are being overly harsh on the writer because what he wrote is true. High season 2015 visitor rates: Turnberry - £250, Kingsbarns - £226, Trump Int'l - £215, Muirfield - £210, Royal Troon - £205; Castle Stuart - £180.  It will cost the visitor £205 in the high season to play Troon...thats the truth.  The 4 week £150 green fee offer is not during high season. 

For many, (me included), paying a mandatory extra £55 to play the Portland on the same day as the Champ Course doesn't represent anything but a mandatory extra £55 spent for an unwanted product.  I recognize that the Champ Course is available to play on its own for the proper green fee of £150 for 4 weeks a year, however, I also recognize that the packaging of two courses isn't a something which appeals to many.  It strikes me as price gauging...especially when the green fee for the Portland is not listed...who knows, for the visitor perhaps it can only be played as part of a 1 day package. 

Ciao

[Matt MacIver]

As a FYI, Ferguson and his book have been around ~15 years. I used it to plan my 2007 trip and it was very useful to me. I booked my entire trip over the web, played the best courses in Fife and Ayrshire, payed full rack rate and loved every minute.

Perhaps his recent post was made to gin up some business, or acknowledge some hidden gems?  I really don't care either way.

To this day Troon is the most expensive round I've ever played, since we did what most others do: skip Portland and play Prestwick in the afternoon. Glad I did, too!

[Carl Johnson]

Niall -

The green fee rate Ferguson quoted is 205 pounds, which is the rate as shown on the Royal Troon website for golf only. . . .  
  
DT

David

I beg to differ. . . .

Now I don't know of this guy, but his website certainly bums him up as being as a guide. You'd have thought therefore he would have been more transparent and informative with his comments, and indeed the fact that he doesn't mention the Portland course suggests he's fairly ignorant of it which doesn't give me much confidence in his qualities as a guide.

Niall

Niall, I beg to differ.

Ferguson does a number of things.  His book, which has been revised a number of times, encourages golf visitors to Scotland to do it on their own, and tells them how.  I think it's an excellent guide for the novice.  If I'd fault him at all, it's for going a little too much on the cheap side sometimes, but it's your choice.  Like all other information provided on golf travel, including from the "experts" on this site, you still have to check things out on your own, ask the right questions, factor in your personal preferences (sometimes reasonable golfers do have different opinions about which are the "best" courses to play, I have learned  ).  In general he advocates staying in one place and playing courses in that area (rather than jumping around and wasting time and effort traveling all over the place), playing lesser know courses, getting to know the locals, using small inns and b & b's, avoiding high prices, etc.  In the past he's recommended Arnold Clark for car rentals, which while less expensive than the major brands, we've found also delivers a lesser product.

Ferguson also operates as sort of a travel agent, or he used to.  About 15 years ago, as novices, my friends and I had him put together a trip for us.  He charged $100 per person, and said he took no commissions from vendors.  He did not book air travel, but suggested an itinerary, made tee times, got us places to stay and a driver, and put together a booklet for each of us with lots of supplemental information.  All in the costs were very low.  Subsequently, his per person rate went up, but in our subsequent trips we've done it all on our own, so I don't know how his "agent" business stands today.  However, based on our later experiences and getting to know the lay of the golf tourism land in Scotland, we remain quite satisfied with what Alan did for us back at our beginning.

I'm still on the e-mail list for his periodic newsletter that started this tread going, and which I find quite useful -- again, as a starting point.

[Jon Wiggett]

Muirfield visitor booking:

http://www.muirfield.org.uk/visitors.aspx

Old Course visitor booking:

http://www.standrews.com/Ballot

End of discussion!

On neither of those sites can anyone "book" a tee time. 

No, but both tell you how to go about it.

This website tells you how to go about booking 80+% of the US top 100.

And your point is what exactly???

[Jon Wiggett]

I think we are losing sight of the original premise....green fees are going beyond the pale.  £200 has become the new bar...it wasn't all that long ago that £100 was the bar. 

Ciao

I first played The Old Course in 2002 for £85. It's now £170. Do you know any US public courses that have doubled their fee in that time? Most I can think of have made modest increases at best.

Michael,

when I used to play TOC on a regular basis back in 85, 86 & 87 I recall the GF being £18. Greenfee inflation gone mad since though.

Jon

[Jud_T]

Some people get utlility out of paying 250 quid for a Doak 8, others get more juice out of finding a Doak 7 for 50.  What's the problem?

[JC Jones]

Some people get utlility out of paying 250 quid for a Doak 8, others get more juice out of finding a Doak 7 for 50.  What's the problem?

They are using the Doak scale?

[Keith Phillips]

Paul Stockert (welcome to the forum) gets it right.  I'm currently in Ballybunion (over from New Jersey) on the 3rd night of a 6 night golf trip - I booked prime tee times at Waterville, Dooks, Tralee, Ballybunion, Doonbeg and Lahinch all remotely, most via direct links on the club websites, and two requiring me to email directly.  It was all done in a matter of minutes, and that is something that clearly can NOT be done in the United States.  Yes you can 'ask your pro' to try to get you on Oakmont or Shinny, and you may have some luck, but I for one am not about to ask for 73 such favors (!)  I've played 40 of the top 100 in the US, all through friends/invitations/outings - a lot of luck involved, but I'm not the type to push for invitations to the rest.  It's a rather preposterous point to say that US clubs are equally accessible...it just is NOT true and that's okay.  While I love visiting the UK and Ireland and having access to great courses and clubs, I am also quite happy with the privacy/exclusivity of my  two fine private clubs in the US.  I've had local members as caddies at each of the clubs we are playing and they live happily with the tradeoff of 'low dues' vs. 'limited tee times/slow play/poor conditions' that nobody at a top 100 (or 500) club in the US would stand for.  

[JC Jones]

Muirfield visitor booking:

http://www.muirfield.org.uk/visitors.aspx

Old Course visitor booking:

http://www.standrews.com/Ballot

End of discussion!

On neither of those sites can anyone "book" a tee time. 

No, but both tell you how to go about it.

This website tells you how to go about booking 80+% of the US top 100.

And your point is what exactly???

I was told I could book those courses online.  I can't.  I can get info on how to go about it, but that is different from booking them online.

Kavanaugh is right, a significant majority of the courses in the US are available for play to people who are enthusiastic about architecture and the history of the game in the same way the courses in GB&I are.

[Keith Phillips]

JC, I'm not sure what your point is.  I agree TOC is hard - I've tried a few times and only succeeded once.  Muirfield IS doable online (I've done it...albeit a few years back).  And Turnberry, Kingsbarns, etc. are very much resort courses, so no different from Pebble or Pinehurst.  But to say that a 'significant majority of US courses are available to play' is an interesting choice of words...of course that is true, we can all play mediocre local munis or semi-privates.  How about we take a Top 100 world list (any one will be fine) and let me try to book 2015 tee times on the top 20 UK/Ireland courses and you try to book tee times on the top 20 US courses - my guess is I'll get 12-15 bookings in 24 hours, while you will be...what exactly?

[Bill_McBride]

I'm off to St Andrews Saturday with no Old Course tee times in hand but I'm sure we'll get in a round one of our four days.  Either the ballot or the 5 am show up will do the trick.  In the meantime there is a lot more very good golf in Fife while one waits....

[JC Jones]

JC, I'm not sure what your point is.  I agree TOC is hard - I've tried a few times and only succeeded once.  Muirfield IS doable online (I've done it...albeit a few years back).  And Turnberry, Kingsbarns, etc. are very much resort courses, so no different from Pebble or Pinehurst.  But to say that a 'significant majority of US courses are available to play' is an interesting choice of words...of course that is true, we can all play mediocre local munis or semi-privates.  How about we take a Top 100 world list (any one will be fine) and let me try to book 2015 tee times on the top 20 UK/Ireland courses and you try to book tee times on the top 20 US courses - my guess is I'll get 12-15 bookings in 24 hours, while you will be...what exactly?

Awesome.

[John Kavanaugh]

Both the UK and US systems serve the same purpose. That being to discriminate in a manner to control play towards a desired number of golfers. The US system relies on the strength of character of the people who are granted access to their courses. The UK system simply relies on the strength of one who golfs bank account. While I don't know which system is most fair there is little doubt with where I would rather find myself in a game.

[astavrides]

The US system relies on the strength of character of the people who are granted access to their courses.

bullspit

[Garland Bayley]

The US system relies on the strength of character of the people who are granted access to their courses.

bullspit

+1

Since John seems to be able to access those courses, he negates his own statement.

[BCowan]

The US system relies on the strength of character of the people who are granted access to their courses.

bullspit

    In India, Jkava would be know as the ''Great Ball Carrier''.  Great bullshitter.  

[John Kavanaugh]

If you think I am wrong consider how differently golfers act at Pebble vs Cypress. An audition reveals something more than an audit. Sorry but it is that simple.

[Jon Wiggett]

If you think I am wrong consider how differently golfers act at Pebble vs Cypress. An audition reveals something more than an audit. Sorry but it is that simple.

Yes, and neither of these courses are going to bust the bank balance of the average man John, I agree on much of what you are saying but trying to peddle the US courses as attracting a better class of golfer for a lower price is an elitist crock of s@*t I'm afraid.

Jon

[Tony_Muldoon]

It seems there are two arguments going on here.

One the usual about access .

The other thing about playing the UK&I courses for the most part, depending on availability, you can choose your own time. Albeit you may have to plan upto a year ahead. In the US you play when the club or host makes a spot avaible to you.  Try lining up the week of your next significant birthday where you celebrate by playing all the courses you want to see on Long Island …with 3 (or more) of your best friends! Pull that off and I’m wondering how good a friend of the POTUS you must also be!

The second about cost (which as Sean points out was the original point of the thread)
I’m lucky I’ve seen a lot of the courses I want to play so generally the price inflation isn’t loosing me any sleep. There are some of those courses I will pay to play again (including the cost of getting there) but as I know what I’m buying, I go in with my eyes open.

I wonder if you guys do anything but Golf?  It’s not the only thing where inflation has spiralled well above average because there are enough punters who will pay the asking price.   My local cinema wants £25 to see a live relay of a concert! But then I’ve also seen The Stones/Who/Springsteen/Madonna etc etc. live. In no case did I pay more than £40, mostly under half that.   I understand the going rate these days for a major act is £120+ and they have your money for upto a year in advance. Quick Google offers me tickets to Taylor Swift in Hyde Park (massive crowd, open air) “from £110.00”. In 1975 I saw Queen there and in 1991 Pavarotti, both were free concerts.  So the days of trying a gig to see if I like it are gone.  The fame game is adding to the value of a Brand and I firmly believe the rates that famous golf courses charge will continue to outstrip any measure of average inflation. Do I like this?  No of course I don’t. But I do like seeing 'smaller' bands in intimate venues, so I can live happily with the choices I am able to make.

[Sean_A]

Spangles

I agree with you.  I have no real qualm with an entity charging what it can on the open market.  I do, however, wonder what the end game is.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Niall -

The green fee rate Ferguson quoted is 205 pounds, which is the rate as shown on the Royal Troon website for golf only. . . .  
  
DT

David

I beg to differ. . . .

Now I don't know of this guy, but his website certainly bums him up as being as a guide. You'd have thought therefore he would have been more transparent and informative with his comments, and indeed the fact that he doesn't mention the Portland course suggests he's fairly ignorant of it which doesn't give me much confidence in his qualities as a guide.

Niall

Niall, I beg to differ.

..as is your perogative. Happy to take your word on Fergussons usefulness as a guide on how to organise a tour to Scotland, particularly for first time visitors. However I still think that ignoring the inclusion of a MacKenzie links course in the price for Troon suggests a certain lack of awareness/respect/knowledge (call it what you will) even if he was trying to make a larger point about pricing. I guess I just don't like the tabloid style of writing he employs.

Niall

[Niall C]

 While I love visiting the UK and Ireland and having access to great courses and clubs, I am also quite happy with the privacy/exclusivity of my  two fine private clubs in the US.  I've had local members as caddies at each of the clubs we are playing and they live happily with the tradeoff of 'low dues' vs. 'limited tee times/slow play/poor conditions' that nobody at a top 100 (or 500) club in the US would stand for.  

Keith

As someone who is a member of a Scottish club, I think you may be over stating it to suggest that your average UK member would be happy with limited tee times/slow pay/poor conditions in exchange for low subs presumably subsidised by visitor greenfees. I think you will find that members ideally would want it both ways ie. low subs with no visitors, ready access to the course and no one in their way. And of course conditioning that would put Augusta to shame.

Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

 While I love visiting the UK and Ireland and having access to great courses and clubs, I am also quite happy with the privacy/exclusivity of my  two fine private clubs in the US.  I've had local members as caddies at each of the clubs we are playing and they live happily with the tradeoff of 'low dues' vs. 'limited tee times/slow play/poor conditions' that nobody at a top 100 (or 500) club in the US would stand for.  

Keith

As someone who is a member of a Scottish club, I think you may be over stating it to suggest that your average UK member would be happy with limited tee times/slow pay/poor conditions in exchange for low subs presumably subsidised by visitor greenfees. I think you will find that members ideally would want it both ways ie. low subs with no visitors, ready access to the course and no one in their way. And of course conditioning that would put Augusta to shame.

Niall

Of course you are right, Niall, but anyone who's been around top American clubs knows that what we in Britain regard as top conditioning and the level of perfection you see at the highest level in the US is completely different. Now, I don't say this is a good thing - I think a lot of the American industry is way over focused on manicuring to the Nth degree. But if you are used to that and you come to Britain you will see the difference.

[Jud_T]

A guy just paid $179mm for a 2nd or 3rd tier Picasso.  Doesn't mean it was a good investment, but he wanted it and he got it.  People pay thousands of dollars for brand name wines. It just means rich people like brand names, not that every interesting wine or artists work is going to get bid up.