Allan Ferguson Comments On Green Fees In Scotland

[John Kavanaugh]

David,

I will make it simple, list 28 courses that can not be accessed by a European golfer by writing a letter to the club.  Please use the most recent Golf Digest top 100 of America.

[David_Tepper]

John -

I realize you take a perverse pleasure in making ludicrous and misleading statements frequently on this chatboard. Most of the time I could care less, because I know much of what you post is nonsense. I just worry that some casual observers might take what you write seriously.

DT

[John Kavanaugh]

David,

I will never understand why people on this board continually make statements that would lead one to believe that the great courses in the country are somehow closed to play by non-members.  What is most surprising it is often the very people who have played these courses that claim they are closed.  America is a welcoming society by definition, it's our history---we can't help ourselves.

[Michael Whitaker]

David/Mike,

I don't know about you guys but when I talk about green fees I generally mean the cost of playing the course and not including lunch or extra round of golf on another course, in that respect Mr Fergusson was still misleading. Giving ahead line rate ie. peak season rate, is one thing but throwing in the extras and implying that the cost is just for the course (which is what I think he did) is deceitful in my opinion.

For instance how many of the other green fees quoted include extras ?

Niall 

Niall/David,

I only mentioned the lunch because the rate at Troon traditionally included a round on both courses and lunch. Evidently they have removed the lunch as a benefit included with the golf... which is another way of raising the fee... yes?
 

[Michael Whitaker]

David,

I will never understand why people on this board continually make statements that would lead one to believe that the great courses in the country are somehow closed to play by non-members.  What is most surprising it is often the very people who have played these courses that claim they are closed.  America is a welcoming society by definition, it's our history---we can't help ourselves.

John - just curious... which great American courses that have had statements on this board leading one to believe they are "closed" to non-members do you consider welcoming?

[John Kavanaugh]

Michael,

I will not kill the Golden Goose by mentioning a name under that context.  Even David Davis recently played damn near every great course in the country on his recent tour.  What more evidence do you need?

I personally have played or been invited to every course in the country that I desire to play with the exception of one.  I honestly believe that golf courses like golfers who like golf courses.  It is a simple formula.

[Thomas Dai]

Michael,
I will not kill the Golden Goose by mentioning a name under that context.  Even David Davis recently played damn near every great course in the country on his recent tour.  What more evidence do you need?
I personally have played or been invited to every course in the country that I desire to play with the exception of one.  I honestly believe that golf courses like golfers who like golf courses.  It is a simple formula.

I would have thought that being invited (or getting an introduction through your club pro) is somewhat different to just 'phoning the club up in advance yourself (or these days at some courses booking yourself a tee time online) which is pretty much the norm in GB&I.

atb

[Mike Schott]

Michael,

I will not kill the Golden Goose by mentioning a name under that context.  Even David Davis recently played damn near every great course in the country on his recent tour.  What more evidence do you need?

I personally have played or been invited to every course in the country that I desire to play with the exception of one.  I honestly believe that golf courses like golfers who like golf courses.  It is a simple formula.

What about the golf enthusiast who is not a member of a club? I can't imagine that nearby courses like Oakland Hills and Franklin Hills are going to let me play without an invite from a member no matter how sweetly I ask.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have been specific that you can't play close to home. I can't explain exactly why but it is unfortunate for those of you who live near great courses.

[JC Jones]

Michael,
I will not kill the Golden Goose by mentioning a name under that context.  Even David Davis recently played damn near every great course in the country on his recent tour.  What more evidence do you need?
I personally have played or been invited to every course in the country that I desire to play with the exception of one.  I honestly believe that golf courses like golfers who like golf courses.  It is a simple formula.

I would have thought that being invited (or getting an introduction through your club pro) is somewhat different to just 'phoning the club up in advance yourself (or these days at some courses booking yourself a tee time online) which is pretty much the norm in GB&I.

atb

Please point me to the website that allows me to book The Old Course and Muirfield online.

[David_Tepper]

Muirfield visitor booking:

http://www.muirfield.org.uk/visitors.aspx

Old Course visitor booking:

http://www.standrews.com/Ballot

End of discussion!

[Eric Strulowitz]

I imagine with enough effort, there are but a handful of courses you could not get on.  It is just a matter of how hard you try and networking can conquer all.   Networking has yet to fail me, and I am always glad to help when I am being "networked".

I have played many of the top courses in the uk, some viewed as very exclusive.   A nicely worded letter was all it took, and in one case a little networking got the job done.  I imagine there are very few courses in the UK that are impossible to get on, and the process seems a little easier there than here.

I remember a few years back my wife were traveling in the US and we came across quite by accident a very exclusive well known club.  I had to stop and get my picture taking outside the gate.  The next thing I know, a guy who was clearly security comes up to me, I figured he would tell me to get off the property quick.  Instead, he was as friendly as could be, he could tell I was a golf nut, he loaded my wife and I on the security van and we got a complete tour of the property and a glimpse of many of the holes.  This was not a golf trip, but I honestly believe that if I had asked, I could have played.

[Paul Stockert]

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that US Courses are open and inviting, regardless of where you live.  I will absolutely concede that a nicely worded email or phone call to a professional at some private clubs, even without reciprocal club membership, can work some magic.  I also think society events, charity events, and sites like this one can open up access for people who truly love golf and golf courses.  One also might try to meet the superintendent at the bar and buy beers till he relents to sneak you on the course on Monday.   But I still think the clubs where that will work aren't in the same class as the ones being discussed in the UK (or that are in Ireland, or AUS for that matter), and ultimately it just isn't simple to get on the elite courses in the U.S.   

Golf digest world top 100:  http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2014-02/worlds-100-greatest-golf-courses

Of the top 10 in the world, No.'s 4, 6, 7, 8, and 9 have information on their websites explaining on which days visitors are welcome to come play their golf courses and how much it will cost, and how to arrange play.  One could plan a trip around that with a budget and a schedule and without knowing anyone (possibly needing only a proof of handicap).  Examples: Royal Dornoch https://www.royaldornoch.com/GreenFeesAndBookingInfo  County Down http://www.royalcountydown.org/Visitor_Info.aspx 

In fact of the top 20, 10 are outside the US and only one them (Hirono in Japan) would require a member with you to play it.  For the other 9, just check the website, schedule a tee time, and head out.

The other 10 of the top 20 are in the US.   The one that is easily playable (Pebble) puts the UK greens fees to shame.  As far as the others...the "schedule your visitor tee time" pages of the websites must be down for Pine Valley, Augusta, Cypress, Shinnecock, Oakmont, Sand Hills, NGLA, Merion, and Fishers...

Of the rest of the top 100, one can play nearly every non-US course fairly simply (outside of a few in Asia that have similarly exclusionary memberships).  In the U.S., the absolutely lowest ranked US course is #97 Baltusrol GC Lower.  I have a feeling even there my a cold-call to the pro for a tee time later this summer would strike out...

I think you likely have within your lifetime, using connections, charisma and cash, been lucky to play a lot of incredible private courses in the U.S.  But we could set up a trip to Ireland and the UK within the next year and get on all of theirs with just the cash and our handicaps.  I certainly wish we could do that here.

[JC Jones]

Muirfield visitor booking:

http://www.muirfield.org.uk/visitors.aspx

Old Course visitor booking:

http://www.standrews.com/Ballot

End of discussion!

On neither of those sites can anyone "book" a tee time. 

Also, I feel bad for the public course 25 handicap who may or may not be able to prove it.

[Jon Wiggett]

Muirfield visitor booking:

http://www.muirfield.org.uk/visitors.aspx

Old Course visitor booking:

http://www.standrews.com/Ballot

End of discussion!

On neither of those sites can anyone "book" a tee time. 

No, but both tell you how to go about it.

[Carl Johnson]

Just checked the Royal Troon website and the greenfee of £205 quoted by Fergusson is for a round on the Championship course AND a round on the MacKenzie designed Portland course. A round on the Championship course alone is £150.

Now some may say that is still over priced and I'd probably agree but I think Fergusson should have been more honest. I haven't checked the other green fees quoted to see what else is included but if Troon is anything to go by those headline figures probably don't tell the whole story.

Niall

The rate for both courses used to include lunch. Their website goes to great pains to explain that lunch is no longer included but available for purchase. Add £25.

About 8 to 10 years ago four of us played at Royal Troon and whatever the fee was, it did include both courses and lunch.  That was the only option.  Our chauffeur for the seven-day stay in Troon was a Royal Troon (not just a town member at Portland) member (said he was the youngest person ever to be admitted as a member). Interesting, to me, story:  As "visitors," the four of us could go to the Royal Troon clubhouse bar for a drink after our rounds, which happened to be the last day of our visit to Troon.  We asked our driver to join us.  He said he was sorry, but members were not allowed to socialize with visitors in the clubhouse.  So we invited him to our hotel bar for a drink, which he accepted.

[JC Jones]

Muirfield visitor booking:

http://www.muirfield.org.uk/visitors.aspx

Old Course visitor booking:

http://www.standrews.com/Ballot

End of discussion!

On neither of those sites can anyone "book" a tee time. 

No, but both tell you how to go about it.

This website tells you how to go about booking 80+% of the US top 100.

[Michael Whitaker]

Michael,

I will not kill the Golden Goose by mentioning a name under that context.  Even David Davis recently played damn near every great course in the country on his recent tour.  What more evidence do you need?

I personally have played or been invited to every course in the country that I desire to play with the exception of one.  I honestly believe that golf courses like golfers who like golf courses.  It is a simple formula.

My question was a bit facetious and I completely understand the "golden goose" reference. Yes, there are a few who are bold and have no qualms about asking their way onto any course... it's as if they truly believe they deserve to play these courses and are doing the clubs a favor by ticking that box off their bucket list. I guess is it my Southern upbringing, but I've always been embarrassed to overtly ask for access to a course. I'd rather sit on the sidelines than weasel my way onto a course for the sake of ticking a box. I was taught that if I was not worthy of being invited somewhere then I didn't need to be there.   

I played this weekend with a good friend who has a rich UK accent. We laughed about how his accent opens so many doors at USA clubs... which goes to your "distance" theory. I agree... USA clubs love visitors with foreign accents. I doesn't really matter the accent:  English, Irish, Australian, South African, French... just about any (except maybe Russian) will open a the door and let the visitor into the inner sanctum. The thing I like about the UK "visitor" policy is that it is simply about money... if you have the dough they will let you in... it's just that simple.

[Sean_A]

I think we are losing sight of the original premise....green fees are going beyond the pale.  £200 has become the new bar...it wasn't all that long ago that £100 was the bar. 

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

If I could in tomorrow and say I wanted to be payed twice as much as I'm making now and my boss just shrugged and doubled my paycheck, would I be overpayed? And if I could go back in a couple years and ask for another doubling and get it, would there be anything surprising about me going back a third time at some point later and asking for another raise?

I guess if you charge a high enough green fee, you only need a few hundred people in the whole world willing to pay up and you'll bring in a boatload of money.  If I belonged to club charging 80 pounds to 2,000 visitors a year when they could be getting 250 pounds from half as many I'd insist they bump the fee up to whatever the market will bear.

And here's the truth of the matter. Even if these big-name clubs were to overshoot the mark and set their fee so high that their stream of visitors dried up, they could just cut them back down and everyone would think they were getting a great deal. There's no way to lose by charging more.

[Michael Whitaker]

I think we are losing sight of the original premise....green fees are going beyond the pale.  £200 has become the new bar...it wasn't all that long ago that £100 was the bar. 

Ciao

I first played The Old Course in 2002 for £85. It's now £170. Do you know any US public courses that have doubled their fee in that time? Most I can think of have made modest increases at best.

[Sean_A]

Brent

That is what I would urge a big gun club to do if I was the secretary, but it does run the risk of alienating locals...the odd and one never knows what the consequences of this may be. 

Anyway, the rise on fees has sent me into downsizing mode for the past few years.  I think I would rather spend my money on travel costs to reach odd courses which looknvery cool, but are cheap once there.  Askernish, Harris and the Channel Isles have gotten closer to the centre of my radar.

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

Sean,

I suppose I ended up at Harlech and Askernish partly because I was downsizing last year. At any rate, I did a three night, six round deal at Royal St. Davids and experienced what has to be one of the most financially attractive "deals" of any really high quality links golf course. Also a round at Aberdovey which was also very fine at a reasonably walk-up rate.

That trip has pretty much set the bar for my future travels. I'm not saying I won't make another expensive trip again at some point (I'd dearly love another go at Royal St. George's but the price is rather extreme) but as long as I stick to the under-100-pound per day range for golf+lodging I can probably afford to make a week-long trip each year. If I wanted to stick to the sort of high-$$$ itineraries I've done in the past, well that's just not sustainable on an annual basis.

Would I rather play at Sandwich or Dornoch than at Harlech or Aberdovey? Absent cost considerations yes I would. I think RSG in particular is as fine a course as I've ever seen. But a round at Harlech is for me 90% of the value for 30% of the cost (less than that accounting for higher accommodation costs along England's southeast coast).

One drawback to Harlech and Aberdovey is that, because it's such a good deal, they tend to have many days that are darned near as fully booked as a resort course in Myrtle Beach or somewhere. Mostly visitors. So it was not really a "hang with the locals" type of thing. I spent a lot of my trip hanging out with a group of visitors from Sweden. They've played a few of the high-$$$ UK courses over the years but mostly book affordable-golf junkets to places like mid-Wales for their yearly boy's week out trips.

[Paul Stockert]

I don't think I understand the complaint about fees here. So it's 200 pounds to get on the best UK courses now.  That's about $300 exchanged.  It costs $495 to play the one top 10 accessible course in the US.  It seems like the UK might have room to keep raising the rates. But at least you can get on easily.   If I was assured of a $300 tee time at NGLA later this summer, without asking for favors and just by saving for the trip, you can be sure I'd plan that trip.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I guess if you charge a high enough green fee, you only need a few hundred people in the whole world willing to pay up and you'll bring in a boatload of money.  If I belonged to club charging 80 pounds to 2,000 visitors a year when they could be getting 250 pounds from half as many I'd insist they bump the fee up to whatever the market will bear.

Exactly Brent.

Golf clubs are just that; clubs - run for the benefit of their members.

If a club is in the fortunate position of having a course that is in high demand from visitors it is in the interests of members to bring in as much revenue from the least number of visitors possible. That way visitor income subsidises annual subscriptions with minimum impact.

Golf clubs are not public facilities - they are private clubs that must balance their budgets in the most efficient way. Amongst other things this means charging the maximum green fee that the market will bear in order to bring in the required revenue from as few visitors as possible.

And here's the truth of the matter. Even if these big-name clubs were to overshoot the mark and set their fee so high that their stream of visitors dried up, they could just cut them back down and everyone would think they were getting a great deal. There's no way to lose by charging more.

This is exactly the argument I make at Reddish Vale. We were giving our green fees away at £20 because that was what other courses in our area were charging and the worry was that we would lose revenue if prices were raised. Since we increased the fee to £30 our reputation has soared locally as a quality 'must play' course and total green fee revenue is up 30% year on year.  If we put the fee up to £50 we might well overshoot the market, but what the heck?  We simply offer a 20% 'discount' and people feel that they are getting to play a £50 course for £40.

A higher green fee also makes membership appear even better value for money.  And members are what golf clubs are all about.