OT: If the top 10 courses in the U.S......

[SteveOgulukian]

.....became public courses, what would you think a “fair” greens fee would be for each?  This came about when discussing Pebble’s $500 greens fee and it was interesting to hear some varying opinions.  

Using GD’s top 10 (excluding PB), we have the following:

1)   Augusta
2)   Pine Valley
3)   Cypress Point
4)   Shinnecock
5)   Merion
6)   Oakmont
7)   NGLA
8   Winged Foot
9)   Fishers Island
10)   Sand Hills

Please keep in mind that this would be based on the course becoming a public facility, with a fully booked tee sheet,  which is different than asking somebody what they would pay to play PV with a member tomorrow.  

[Andrew Buck]

$500 is probably in the neighborhood for most, similar to Pebble and Pinehurst.

I suspect Augusta or the NYC area courses would command the most because of the masters, and location, respectively.

Oakmont would probably get something in the $300 range, because I'm not sure there would be enough "destination" travelers and not sure Pittsburgh would keep the tee-times full above that.

Sand Hills probably commands less, but I'm not sure it works as well as a public course.

[Brent Hutto]

They wouldn't necessarily be Top 10 if they were public.

[GLawson]

I would say $500+ for everything close to the ocean and probably $1000 for Augusta.  I mean the Wynn Course and Shadow Creek command $500.

$350 - 400 for Oakmont and Merion.

[Andrew Buck]

I would say $500+ for everything close to the ocean and probably $1000 for Augusta.  I mean the Wynn Course and Shadow Creek command $500.

$350 - 400 for Oakmont and Merion.

Wynn and Shadow Creek "command" $500 because they casino owners want them to be empty. 

[Benjamin Litman]

Steve: Good hypothetical, but I wonder whether we add another--namely, what would the courses charge if they adopted the British model of "visitor days" on certain days of the week?

[PCCraig]

1)   Augusta - $2,500
2)   Pine Valley - $750
3)   Cypress Point - $500
4)   Shinnecock - $400
5)   Merion - $500
6)   Oakmont - $300
7)   NGLA - $250
8   Winged Foot - $400
9)   Fishers Island - $150
10)   Sand Hills - $100

[John Kavanaugh]

Each of these courses has a doppleganger public course with an established rate.  This is like asking what Taylor Swift could charge at the Bunny Ranch.  The price will decrease after a few years.

[BCowan]

Steve: Good hypothetical, but I wonder whether we add another--namely, what would the courses charge if they adopted the British model of "visitor days" on certain days of the week?

Benjamin,

   that would make too much sense.  It would be cool if a few courses opened up a few monday's of the year to the public.  $300-500 a player.  Many outings are cluttered with chops, and if someone is willing to drop their own money vs. the companies money imo they are more likely to be good stewards at a high end golf course.   The Golf of Association of Michigan is already doing these Monday outings at private clubs.  

Any course on water is going to go for much more.  Cypress would command much more than PV imo.

[SteveOgulukian]

Benjamin, it would be nice if it were done that way over here.  At the very least, I always thought it would be nice if there were a nationwide day once a year when all private courses opened up for public play with some sort of lottery system for the big boys.  Greens fees could all be donated to charities after each club takes their fair share.

[Andrew Buck]

Each of these courses has a doppleganger public course with an established rate.  This is like asking what Taylor Swift could charge at the Bunny Ranch.  The price will decrease after a few years.

While I don't disagree the value would go down, you still have Pebble Beach and #2 charging $500 and Whistling Straits getting nearly $400 prior to caddie.  I think Torrey Pines even approaches $250 on weekends, so I don't think it's crazy to think many on this list would maintain fees in that ballpark.

[Benjamin Litman]

Ben/Steve: My understanding as to why U.S. private courses have not adopted the British "visitor days" model is that they simply don't have to. Member fees at private clubs in Britain (and in Australia, for that matter, where rates for overseas visitors are even higher than in Britain) are far less than at private clubs in the United States. But I do wonder whether a desire to "give back to the game"--i.e., beyond merely to supplement finances--also motivates the British model.

[John Kavanaugh]

Every one of these courses is easy to access with the exception of ANGC.  If you don't believe me just look at all the people from this site alone that have played them at their leisure.  Funny thing is, if they were public the majority of this site would play them for free.  They would be begging for raters to extort them to keep their status so they could rob the rest of the rubes.

[SteveOgulukian]

Every one of these courses is easy to access with the exception of ANGC.  If you don't believe me just look at all the people from this site alone that have played them at their leisure.  Funny thing is, if they were public the majority of this site would play them for free.  They would be begging for raters to extort them to keep their status so they could rob the rest of the rubes.

John, I don't think the individuals on this forum make up a fair sample set when determining how easy/difficult access is to these clubs.  If you only use GCA as an indicator, one would think that there's no demand whatsoever for Kanye West concert tickets.

[Paul Jones]

I would say $1000 for Augusta Natl and Pine Valley.

After 9/11, Pine Valley offered tee times for 1 day for non members to play the course for $1000 and tee sheet filled instantly.

[David Davis]

I'd imagine the supply/demand of these courses would determine much higher rates.

As far as that goes they could auction off rounds at each of them every year, say for charity, some already do. I know it's done at Augusta, a friend of a friend paid 40k euro for a weekend there in a charity auction.

[Mike Schott]

Every one of these courses is easy to access with the exception of ANGC.  If you don't believe me just look at all the people from this site alone that have played them at their leisure.  Funny thing is, if they were public the majority of this site would play them for free.  They would be begging for raters to extort them to keep their status so they could rob the rest of the rubes.

John, I don't think the individuals on this forum make up a fair sample set when determining how easy/difficult access is to these clubs.  If you only use GCA as an indicator, one would think that there's no demand whatsoever for Kanye West concert tickets.

Agree. As one who is not a member of a private club, I pretty much have no access to the clubs on this list.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

Have you ever asked nicely in an appropriate manner?

[Sean_A]

I wonder if the top 10 "went public" if the expected price wouldn't be driven down a bit just because the exclusivity angle is no longer in play.  I also wonder if the Pebbles, Pinehursts and Kiawahs prices wouldn't go down just because of what else is on the market.  In any case, a fair green fee wouldn't come anywhere near $500, but the market isn't about fairness.  I think Pine Valley and CPC would set the pace with Augusta being in a world of its own.  So, my guess is

PV & CPC ~$400-600
WF, Merion, Shinny & Oak ~$300-500
Fishers & NGLA ~$250-400
Sand Hills ~$200-300

If Merion stayed around $300 I would give it a go...same for Fishers and NGLA..maybe Sand Hills.  I am not sure my suggested prices for the others would be an enticement public or not.   

Ciao

[Joe_Tucholski]

Each of these courses has a doppleganger public course with an established rate.  This is like asking what Taylor Swift could charge at the Bunny Ranch.  The price will decrease after a few years.

You make a statement that I agree with the premise...

Every one of these courses is easy to access with the exception of ANGC.  If you don't believe me just look at all the people from this site alone that have played them at their leisure.  Funny thing is, if they were public the majority of this site would play them for free.  They would be begging for raters to extort them to keep their status so they could rob the rest of the rubes.

and then go on to make a statement that contradicts the first.

If the courses were so easy to access the supply/demand based price wouldn't slowly drop.  Also the second statement which you regularly spout off is not accurate based on my experiences.  I understand you aren't happy that some people get to play your club(s ?) and other courses at a lower per round price than you.

I couldn't even get a job at one of the LA clubs, much less gain access to play.  So based on my personal experiences elite clubs are not as accessible as you believe based on your personal experiences and the experiences of your acquaintances.

From my speculative and uninformed perspective on something that isn't happening the green fees would look something like this (many would also have a local price):
1)   Augusta - $410 (hosts an annual major but is in the affordable south and not a destination with other public courses so same as Pinehurst price)
2)   Pine Valley -$275 (close to Philly but no PGA tour presence, this assumes it only drops a little in the rankings but behind Merion)
3)   Cypress Point - $400 (similar to Spyglass, would be similar to Pebble if they still played the ProAm there)
4)   Shinnecock - $500 (Bethpage is only $150 but it's run by the parks, it has the US Open Pedigree also with NGLA next door it turns into a pretty good public destination)
5)   Merion - $350 (US Open Pedigree)
6)   Oakmont - $300 (US Open Pedigree)
7)   NGLA - $300 (See Shinnecock comment minus US Open Pedigree)
  Winged Foot - $550 (close to NYC with US Open Pedigree)
9)   Fishers Island - $200 (needs a hotel)
10)   Sand Hills - $150 (pretty remote, and if public I speculate it would have to change maintenance practices)

[John Kavanaugh]

I couldn't even get a job at one of the LA clubs, much less gain access to play.  

Joe, the clubs where I am a member wouldn't hire me either. Dismal once left me in charge of the bar and it may have been the biggest mistake current management ever made.  Of course it didn't help that we had a power outage an hour into my tenure.

[SB]

Each of these courses has a doppleganger public course with an established rate.  This is like asking what Taylor Swift could charge at the Bunny Ranch.  The price will decrease after a few years.

Agree 100%.
CP around $500, just like Pebble (maybe a little more)
Fishers - tough to get to, probably priced like Bandon
Winged Foot - Not sure about this one - the other CCFADs in NYC getting $100 or so make me want to be conservative, but the corporate demand for outings might drive the rate through the roof.
Pine Valley, Oakmont, Merion - the daily fee courses in these market don't even get $100, so why would people pay more than $200 for these places?  Yes, they are nice, but triple the going rate?  
Sand Hills - The Prairie Club gets $220, so maybe $275?  Maybe a lot less than that on a package.
The toughest one is Augusta.  Not many good examples of courses that host majors in small markets without ocean views and nice lodging.
Shinnecock and NGLA could be the most expensive due to the location, short season, and lack of competition.  $800?

[Rob Marshall]

Every one of these courses is easy to access with the exception of ANGC.  If you don't believe me just look at all the people from this site alone that have played them at their leisure.  Funny thing is, if they were public the majority of this site would play them for free.  They would be begging for raters to extort them to keep their status so they could rob the rest of the rubes.

John, I don't think the individuals on this forum make up a fair sample set when determining how easy/difficult access is to these clubs.  If you only use GCA as an indicator, one would think that there's no demand whatsoever for Kanye West concert tickets.

Agree. As one who is not a member of a private club, I pretty much have no access to the clubs on this list.

I'm a member at a private club and being a member at my club provides me no ability to get on any of those clubs

[John Kavanaugh]

I was just out at the course having a few drinks with a couple of very unimpressive buddies and they have played everywhere!!!  This led me to the conclusion...If you can't play where you wish, it's not the fault of the club, it's you.

[jeffwarne]

1)   Augusta - $2,500
2)   Pine Valley - $750
3)   Cypress Point - $500
4)   Shinnecock - $400
5)   Merion - $500
6)   Oakmont - $300
7)   NGLA - $250
8   Winged Foot - $400
9)   Fishers Island - $150
10)   Sand Hills - $100

If Augusta were public, it would lose all of its cache and would be priced just north of any other inland well known public tournament venue.($300-$500?)
Now if you limited access to cabin guests, maybe they get $2500? (but then they've maintained their relative exclusivity)

Fishers?
$400 minimum-