Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"

[noonan]

I thought the course was penal. However it was cold and in November when I played. I had not hit any balls for 2 months when we went. There is width in places - where you do not need it. Clever design that will expose any weakness in your game immediately - even from shorter tees.

[Brett Wiesley]

The impression of most of TPC Sawgrass seems much different now than when it opened.  I think the course has been altered greatly since conception as well.  Compromised in design?  Softened for tour players?  Is is much different than PGA West, which also drew harsh criticism from the pros, so much so they refused to play there.  I don't think PGA West has been altered much though.  Both penal, where you can play great, or blow up huge.

[cary lichtenstein]

I've played the course half a dozen times or so, and the last time I walked off 18 I can distinctly remember thinking "OK, I don't need to come back here for a long time."

I can't really put my finger on why, but Sawgrass has never been the kind of place that keeps me wanting more. The best rounds..the ones I replay in my mind when I can't sleep..seem to always be the ones where I thought "This was a blast..let's do it again." I can't say I've ever said that about Sawgrass.

I've played Sawgrass twice, the weekend after the course debuted on TV for the very first tournament. I couldn't wait to get their and hoped on a plane on Friday the next week. In those days, if you think the course is hard now, you should have seen the greens. Serious elephants were buried there.

I love eye candy. Sawgrass is the scariest course I ever stepped foot on When you step on most tees, their is so much danger lurking on both sides of the fairway, that the ability to make a free, relax swing, disappears. I would guess that the players secretly HATE the course. The putting has been obviously softened so players can now score, but if you are looking for a fun weekend, I would stay "stay away"

On the other hand, I have made 3 trips to Bandon Dunes, and I loved every minute. I can not understand for the life of me, why some people like golf courses that punish them unreasonably. Some members of some clubs, proudly talk about hold difficult their course is as if that makes it desirable.

I do like the 17th hole at Sawgrass. A simple 9 iron or wedge, and 20 of the best players in the world can't hit the green. It does make for an exciting finish.

[Matt Kardash]

I honestly feel that Sawgrass could use a few more back tees just to bring back the long par 4. I am kind of bored of every hole being a driver/3 wood and a wedge/short iron. Even the par 5's are now way too reachable. 16 is a driver and a 7 or 8 iron for some.  I would believe it is time to add a new tee to 17. The hole was designed to be an 8 or 9 iron. Now no one hits more than wedge to any hole location. I'm sure this opinion will not go over well here.

[Pat Burke]

The impression of most of TPC Sawgrass seems much different now than when it opened.  I think the course has been altered greatly since conception as well.  Compromised in design?  Softened for tour players?  Is is much different than PGA West, which also drew harsh criticism from the pros, so much so they refused to play there.  I don't think PGA West has been altered much though.  Both penal, where you can play great, or blow up huge.

Brett,
Most of the problems with the pros at PGA West was due to amateurs taking forever to play the course.  Not the difficulty.  If I remember correctly, Pavin shot 65 in the last round to win, and there were other very good rounds.
Q school finals at PGA West, also created a blend of great scores and tragedies.

[Mac Plumart]

I thought the course was penal. However it was cold and in November when I played. I had not hit any balls for 2 months when we went. There is width in places - where you do not need it. Clever design that will expose any weakness in your game immediately - even from shorter tees.

Jerry,

The course is strategic and penal, if you are ready to play when you get to the first tee and play intelligently...you'd be able to handle it. You mention you hadn't hit balls in a few months prior to playing. They have a great range there. Just hit a few extra balls prior to your round and you'd have been good.

[William_G]

it is GREAT to have had Dey and Beman create this fantastic course for an annual PGA event, love it, plus it's very playable for us hacks

[Jason Topp]

Why does the 18th play into the setting sun?

[Rees Milikin]

Why does the 18th play into the setting sun?

It plays slightly northwest, barely into the sun  on your second shot.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Is 16 strategic or penal?  If you hit the tee shot in the fairway, you go for it.   Period.  Nothing to think about.
Is 17 strategic or penal?  No need to answer that question.
Is 18 strategic or penal? Seems like you either hit the tee shot in the fairway or not.  The hole isn't long enough any more that testing the water gets you anything.  325 instead of 305 off the tee?   
So the meat of the course is penal.


I hate to admit it, but it sure is fun to watch anyway.  Once a year. 

[Matt Kardash]

Is 16 strategic or penal?  If you hit the tee shot in the fairway, you go for it.   Period.  Nothing to think about.
Is 17 strategic or penal?  No need to answer that question.
Is 18 strategic or penal? Seems like you either hit the tee shot in the fairway or not.  The hole isn't long enough any more that testing the water gets you anything.  325 instead of 305 off the tee?   
So the meat of the course is penal.


I hate to admit it, but it sure is fun to watch anyway.  Once a year. 

Using your logic of the 16th, would you also say that the 13th at Augusta is penal? If you hit the tee shot in the fairway, you go for it. Period. Nothing to think about.

[Jim Nugent]

Is 16 strategic or penal?  If you hit the tee shot in the fairway, you go for it.   Period.  Nothing to think about.
Is 17 strategic or penal?  No need to answer that question.
Is 18 strategic or penal? Seems like you either hit the tee shot in the fairway or not.  The hole isn't long enough any more that testing the water gets you anything.  325 instead of 305 off the tee?   
So the meat of the course is penal.

Fred Couples won the Players after pushing his drive on the 72nd hole into the right rough -- and then hitting an approach that started out way over the water, and banana-sliced onto the fringe. 

Phil Blackmar lost the Players when a little voice whispered to him, at the top of his swing, to go for the pin at the 71st instead of the center of the green. 

So I think there has been some strategy for the world's best players there, even if it required shots not in the arsenal of most other golfers. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Possible redesign :

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/tour-planning-changes-sawgrass-layout/

[Jeff_Lewis]

Jim and Matt, both of your comments take us in the direction of what happens when a hole has strategic value and the equipment's being totally out of hand changes the way the hole plays.   

left oft the 15th tee at Augusta without a second cut and with a ball that could turn sideways presented a great strategic conundrum.   Not so much any more. everybody chops it out. 

when the 13th was not the length of a par 4, the hanging lie and the length of the second shot was sometimes enough to get players who had hit the fairway to lay up.   if that's not true anymore and the design of the hole hasn't changed....is the hole worse?

golf is undeniably more strategic when the ball curves, and the length of holes combines with the distances to create uncertainty.

Strategic decisions are by definition uncertain.  So, if a formerly strategic hole does not force players to make decisions, than, yes it is no longer strategic.

[Matt Kardash]

Jeff, I agree. Which is why I said above that Sawgrass needs a few new back tees. Certain holes just don't play as well anymore because they are too short and not what Dye had in mind.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Speaking of new back tees, from the article I referenced :

According to those sources, the Tour has a tentative plan to lengthen some holes – including the par-5 second and par-4 sixth - in an effort to put driver back into the players' hands.

Perhaps the most dramatic change the Tour and architect Pete Dye are considering is a dramatic makeover of the par-4 12th hole.

At just 350 yards, the 12th is historically one of the Stadium Course’s easiest holes, with a small green and large mounds left of the fairway meant to create a blind approach shot.

The plan is to make the hole a drivable par 4 by knocking down the mounds, creating a water hazard, and repositioning the green, and playing it between 270 and 330 yards.

[Matt Kardash]

Speaking of new back tees, from the article I referenced :

According to those sources, the Tour has a tentative plan to lengthen some holes – including the par-5 second and par-4 sixth - in an effort to put driver back into the players' hands.

Perhaps the most dramatic change the Tour and architect Pete Dye are considering is a dramatic makeover of the par-4 12th hole.

At just 350 yards, the 12th is historically one of the Stadium Course’s easiest holes, with a small green and large mounds left of the fairway meant to create a blind approach shot.

The plan is to make the hole a drivable par 4 by knocking down the mounds, creating a water hazard, and repositioning the green, and playing it between 270 and 330 yards.

I guess time will tell what that will yield. I actually kind of wish they just put mounds in front of the green and make the approach totally blind.

[Daniel Jones]

I guess time will tell what that will yield. I actually kind of wish they just put mounds in front of the green and make the approach totally blind.

Agreed. I've always enjoyed the look of the 12th hole and the approach. I find nothing at all interesting about "knocking down the mounds and adding a water hazard." Why not bring the mounds more into play and top them with rough that should be avoided at all costs?