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Benjamin Litman

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Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« on: May 06, 2015, 05:10:30 PM »
I have never played it (Harbour Town is the only Dye course I've played), but I imagine many on here have and might have reactions to Passov's review, which is more detailed that what golf.com customarily publishes.

Article here: http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/players-stadium-course-tpc-sawgrass-one-golfs-ultimate-tests

Full text below:

PSAs for the Players Championship have been bombarding the airwaves for months. The PGA Tour assembled all of its big guns, from Tiger to Rory to Adam Scott to tout the Tour’s marquee event, played on its most drama-inducing course. Over and over, we’re treated to images of fist-pumping and heart-clutching moments on the course’s closing holes. But is Pete Dye’s TPC Sawgrass Players Stadium Course really that good? Some Top 100 course rankings -- and many players -- say no. I say yes. Thirty-three years after its debut as the PGA Tour’s grandest stage, it remains a truly elite course and one of the game’s ultimate tournament tests.

I revisited this topic over a recent breakfast meeting with architect Brian Curley. Best known for his work at China’s Mission Hills on behalf of his Schmidt-Curley design firm, Curley cut his teeth in the business in the 1980s, working alongside Dye on Landmark Golf projects such as PGA West and the Ocean Course at Kiawah. I came away more convinced than ever that Dye’s reclaimed North Florida swamp was the work of a genius.

Of all the courses the PGA Tour visits each year, the final few holes at TPC Sawgrass are the most recognizable and distinct, even more so than Augusta National’s. The final stretch can see someone relinquish a big lead or come storming from behind with dramatic swings in scores. The par-5, par-3, par-4 finish is perfect, with a reachable 5, a watery 3 and a long, tough par-4 closer. This yields the best odds to see someone catch up or throw up.

The small greens reward good shots and punish poor shots. The out-of-play areas are flat, hard-packed sand, which allows for a multitude of recovery options. The tall pines create narrow corridors, but also allow room for heroic recoveries. And in terms of design chops, Dye carved out 18 distinctive and memorable holes, despite flat terrain, with only minor elevation changes and a repetitive frame of mostly pines.

What really impresses is the design variety. The layout is a textbook for balancing power with finesse, where strategy and aesthetics merge in unprecedented fashion. Holes dogleg this way and that in equal measure. You have brilliant short par-4s, such as the 384-yard 4th and the 358-yard 12th, where thoughtful placement, angle of attack and recognition of the green contours are paramount. You’ll encounter one brutishly long par-3, the 237-yard 8th, two middle distance one-shotters and the tiny, terror-filled 17th. All four par-3s play in different directions. With the par-5s, again, there’s the massive 9th, two mid-sized efforts at 2 and 11 and a very reachable, if scary at the 16th. With the constant change of direction in routing, the frequent winds that rip through Sawgrass rarely affect play in the same way on back-to-back holes. What this adds up to is a spread that favors no particular type of golfer. Nearly every hole offers thought-provoking risk-reward opportunities, even with the advancements in equipment. Overall, TPC Sawgrass has held up well to the club and ball revolutions.

Less obvious design touches abound as well that serve to elevate Sawgrass’ stature, even as it leads to a degree of discomfort for players. The railroad ties and hard edges to sand and water hazards create an intimidation factor that exceeds the actual danger. It sure raises the tension levels, and we know what tightened grip pressure does to a golf swing.

Bunkers of every classification, from nasty deep pots to long, boxy waste types to rough-choked grassy hollows seem to overwhelm the eye. On courses where every bunker looks the same, it spawns a familiarity that can relax you, as in the notion that if you’ve been in one, you’ll have nothing to fear by landing in any other. Not here.

Let’s not overlook Dye’s brilliance in his tree groupings, grassing textures, varieties and colors and mound designs. Most of these spectator mounds, that gave rise to the notion of “Stadium Golf,” were placed on the right side of fairways and greens, so that fans could see the faces of right-handed golfers when they struck their shots. Land near or atop them and you might need to invent a baseball-type swing to get back into play.

And yes, Dye and his wife Alice gifted the world the island-green, par-3 17th, one of the sport’s most iconic holes.

Sure, there is one too many forced carries for many modern states. Yes, there’s a huge degree of artificiality, as one can hardly say that these holes fit into the natural terrain. No matter. Each hole is different from the one that came before it, and each one is memorable. The shot demands and degree of thinking required are top-tier. That, in my eyes, makes TPC Sawgrass’ Players Stadium a great course.
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2015, 05:22:20 PM »
I think TPC Sawgrass is a great design.  It is design to test the best in the world...and it does.  But it is playable for hacks like me and it has a ton of interest and variety.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Matt Kardash

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2015, 06:57:58 PM »
I don"t think Joe Passov says anything controversial. He is pretty much spot on about the TPC. It's a great design on a terrible piece of land, built by the only man who could ever pull that off. Probably one of the top 5 most iconic designs of all time.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2015, 07:52:37 PM »
The bigger question is how can one of the leading members of this site only have one Pete Dye under his belt?  Being from Indiana I have to ask, is Dye a regional architect?

Benjamin Litman

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2015, 08:14:39 PM »
John: I appreciate the compliment, even though I'm not worthy of it. But to answer your first question, I live in New York and, to my knowledge, Dye designed only a single course in the state (Pound Ridge). (By the way, I forgot Bulle Rock, which I played last summer, so that makes two.)
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Matt Kardash

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2015, 10:26:03 PM »
Perry Dye designed Pound Ridge.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Benjamin Litman

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2015, 10:34:18 PM »
Thanks, Matt. Wikipedia needs to be edited. So that means there are 0 Pete Dye courses in NY?
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Nigel Islam

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 12:06:09 AM »
The bigger question is how can one of the leading members of this site only have one Pete Dye under his belt?  Being from Indiana I have to ask, is Dye a regional architect?

I think to a certain extent that is a fair point John. Obviously Pete has designed all over the place, and a lot of them are public access. Having said that a fairly substantial portion are in the Midwest. Dye doesn't have the total numbers of an RTJ, Nicklaus, or Fazio. I don't think that is an accident either.

Matt Kardash

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2015, 06:09:33 AM »
Thanks, Matt. Wikipedia needs to be edited. So that means there are 0 Pete Dye courses in NY?

It's a little more complicated than that. Both of Pete's son's have designed courses under the Pete Dye name. Most courses that are Pete and PB Dye, or Pete and Perry Dye were designed by his sons. Then there are even a few that are actual "Pete Dye" designs that were designed by his sons, with maybe a site visit or two from Pete for publicity purposes. Pound Ridge is one of those courses.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Matt MacIver

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2015, 06:43:21 AM »
The back 9 is elite. The front nine has some good holes. The last three are inspired.

A recent article showed the past ~10 winners played the last three in even par, and we've seen all types of playing styles win there.

Joe Zucker

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2015, 11:58:55 AM »
I'm not sure if I can say if a course is "Elite" or not, but I will say that Sawgrass is a truly fun course to play.  As a few of you have mentioned, it is surprisingly playable to the amateur for being a challenging tour course.  When I first stepped on the property, I thought it would be a struggle and I would be trying to keep it out of the water all day, but that is really not the case.  It's wider and less of precision target golf than I anticipated from seeing the course on TV.

The last three holes are what makes the course famous and what makes it great, but more importantly fun.  These three holes are somewhat representative of the entire course, in that they can be extremely challenging and eminently playable at the same time.  For the amateur (90 shooter) the tee shot on sixteen is not too tough, hit it up the right and a mound will stop it leaving you an angle.  For the pro, it's a very tight tee shot if they are trying to draw one into the corner and go at the green in two.  From the right rough of an amateurs drive, the player can plod his way down the left side to the green.  The pro has an intimidating shot with the water, but can bail out left, which leaves an the awkward pitch.  The water is lurking to the right, but very avoidable at the same time.

The 17th may not be the best hole architecturally speaking, but it is an unequivocally fun shot to hit once in your life.  Not all that challenging for pros unless the wind is up, but  for everyone else it has great balance.  By definition of the island green, it is a hero shot.  So if you make it over safely, it is awesome and a memorable feeling.  And pretty much anyone is capable of hitting a ball 120 yards in the air. While it may be tough, it is within most golfers ability to achieve the shot.

To me, the 18th is defined by the mounds on the right side of the fairway.  When the pros end up there this week, it is a really tough approach with the water to the left.  If an amateur ends up there, they can pretty easily play the hole as par 5 and knock one down the fairway.  They probably weren't going to hit the green from 200 yards anyways, so the mounds are not that severe of a penalty for an amateur, while at the same time forcing the pro to think really hard about what risk he is willing to take.

These three holes are so much fun to play, especially in a match play setting.  All of them are getable for both a pro looking for birdies and a guy trying to break 90.  These characteristics do not make it an "elite" course necessarily, but it is well worth playing.  If the point of the course is to create a setting that makes a golfer have a great and memorable day, Sawgrass achieves this even if it may not be the ideal place from a GCA perspective.

Benjamin Litman

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2015, 12:09:00 PM »
Joe: Thanks for the detailed insight. Reading it, I was reminded of my recent round at Harbour Town, which also was far wider, more playable, and more fun than I anticipated. How do the two compare? From TV, Sawgrass seems like Harbour Town writ large, but with a lot of similar features and design elements. True?
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Joe Zucker

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2015, 12:59:57 PM »
Benjamin, I would buy that description of Harbour Town.  I haven't played it so I can't comment much on similarities, but I can see how it could be described as a smaller version of Sawgrass from seeing it on TV.  A lot of the talk around Harbour Town is about the small greens, but very little talk about Sawgrass has to do with the greens.  That may be the largest difference between the two, but I haven't played HT so I'm guessing.

I suppose a course defended by tricky/small greens is inherently different from a course defended by length and difficulties off the tee.  That may be a discussion for another thread.

Josh Tarble

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2015, 01:35:08 PM »
What sets TPC Sawgrass apart from many designs is it's ability to challenge the best players mentally.  As Mac mentioned, it really is playable for everyday joes, but is quite difficult for the best players.  What most fail to see is that the fairways are extremely wide, but most are angled to become quite shallow for the player that decides to attack or hits the improper shot shape.  It really is a masterpiece of a design.

William_G

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2015, 02:26:53 PM »
FWIW the best way to play Sawgrass is to walk it, yet the course pushes the cart heavily with cart path only enforced heavily I think year round

make sure to ask for a caddie far in advance
It's all about the golf!

Benjamin Litman

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2015, 02:32:08 PM »
FWIW the best way to play Sawgrass is to walk it, yet the course pushes the cart heavily with cart path only enforced heavily I think year round

make sure to ask for a caddie far in advance

Isn't that the best way to play every course? Also, even if I were a cart fan, I would opt out every single time if I were forced to use only the cart paths.
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2015, 03:04:27 PM »
Last night on Golf Central David Duval said its the greatest course they'll play all year. He then corrected himself to say "one of the greatest".

Maybe we was worried about ANGC future invites.

K Rafkin

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2015, 03:11:50 PM »
Lots of putting from off the green going on today...

William_G

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2015, 08:25:32 PM »
FWIW the best way to play Sawgrass is to walk it, yet the course pushes the cart heavily with cart path only enforced heavily I think year round

make sure to ask for a caddie far in advance

Isn't that the best way to play every course?


no

but especially true at Sawgrass as the cart paths there take you on a tour where you see none of the course you are playing

thanks
It's all about the golf!

Kerry Gray

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2015, 09:24:14 PM »
I loved it. Played it twice and as mentioned their is much more room on the course than you expect. He set alternating tee shots up to favor fades or draws brilliantly. From the tee the landing areas look small but are actually quite generous. I think the most underrated part of the course is the greens, subtlety wonderful. It's full of mind games like a strategically placed trees adjacent to a tee that players will think about but should never come into play.

Benjamin Litman

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2015, 03:21:44 PM »
William: That's actually refreshing to hear. My biggest complaint with cart paths is how conspicuous some of them are. So if being on them means not seeing the course at Sawgrass, I imagine that also means that being on the course means not seeing the cart paths.

Generally, as I watch the tournament this year (with my GCA curiosities piqued as never before), I'm reminded even more of Harbour Town in that the last three holes at both courses represent a "release" from the tree-lined claustrophobia of the first 15.5 holes (recognizing that Harbour Town's release is into Calibogue Sound, while Sawgrass just opens up into a more-cleared swamp area). But the symmetries are extensive. The opening on both courses occurs after the left turn in the fairway on 16. A par-3 in both cases follows. And a long par-4 with a hazard all down the left side closes it out. From everyone's comments on here, I can't wait to play the course one day.
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Matt Kardash

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2015, 03:48:40 PM »
What is amazing about Sawgrass is the scorecards of the players. Does anyone know of a tournament course that yields more bogeys and birdies in the same round? If you look at the scorcards of the players this week it seems like 5 bogeys and 5 birdies for an even par 72 is a typical round.  Sawgrass has many gimme holes, but also has many bogey holes as well. I think that is why it is so exciting.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Benjamin Litman

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2015, 03:58:40 PM »
Agreed, Matt. Tiger's two rounds have been like yo-yos. From watching on TV, I sense that the bermuda grass plays a big role in how penal the course is (i.e., the grass supplements the inherent difficulty of the design). I've never seen so many poor sidehill/downhill/uphill lies around the greens, all because the bermuda grass doesn't allow balls to roll out to more even lies.
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Daniel Jones

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2015, 05:27:23 PM »
I've played the course half a dozen times or so, and the last time I walked off 18 I can distinctly remember thinking "OK, I don't need to come back here for a long time."

I can't really put my finger on why, but Sawgrass has never been the kind of place that keeps me wanting more. The best rounds..the ones I replay in my mind when I can't sleep..seem to always be the ones where I thought "This was a blast..let's do it again." I can't say I've ever said that about Sawgrass.

Joe Zucker

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Re: Joe Passov Calls TPC Sawgrass "A Truly Elite Course"
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2015, 05:47:22 PM »
That's a really interesting comment Daniel.  I had pretty much the exact opposite reaction.  I see some short comings of the course along with some things I like, but when I walk of the course I think about how much fun I had and I have trouble putting my finger on exactly why.  Maybe I'm letting the fame of the 17th hole and the tournament cloud my judgment.  If I'm overrating a course because I like being able to watch pros play it a few months later, I can live with that.  It's still a fun memory and worth a play.

Benjamin, also an interesting comment about the last three holes at both Harbour Town and Sawgrass coming out of the trees and into open space.  I wonder if this was an intentional design feature and if so, what is the purpose of finishing in an open area?  Possibly the clubhouse was put in the open area and the finishing holes naturally come back to that location.